An Egyptian Lascaux!?

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

All,

Here is, for your information, a neat story about the (re)discovery, in the vicinity of Kom Ombo (Egypt), of a series of rock art engravings that are said to be of Late Upper Palaeolithic age, more specifically, in the Magdalenian style. There is no doubt that this particular “chronological/cultural" attribution is likely to cause some controversy.

Lascaux on the Nile.

Palaeolithic rock art depicting animal illustrations similar to those found in the Lascaux caves in France have been discovered in the Upper Egyptian town of Kom Ombo, reports Nevine El-Aref

The discovery of huge rocks decorated with Palaeolithic illustrations at the village of Qurta on the northern edge of Kom Ombo has caused excitement among the scientific community. The art was found by a team of Belgian archaeologists and restorers and features groups of cattle similar to those drawn on the walls of the French Lascaux caves. They are drawn and painted in a naturalistic style which is quite different from those shown in cattle representations of the well-known classical, pre-dynastic iconography of the fourth millennium BC. Illustrations of hippopotami, fish, birds and human figures can also be seen on the surface of some of the rocks.

For access to the full article, click HERE.

Jacques

[trehinp]

Thanks a lot Jacques,

I am delighted to see this discovery in Egypt. It doesn't totally surprise me as it fits pretty much with my hypothesis on the possible authors of such art.

(Radical or progressive evolution « on: February 08, 2004, 01:33:31 PM »)

Actually I wouldn't be too surprised if some even earlier rock art of this style were to be discovered along the path of AMM from Africa to the Middle East and the rest of Europe.

Another note on this art style, while it seems to have disappeared in Western Europe during the Neolithic times, some beautiful naturalistic animal representation continued to be produced in Lybia around 1500 BC.

Paul Trehin

PS: For readers who would prefer a French version of this story here is an article on the subject in Molière's tongue: "Lascaux le long du Nil"

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Thanks a lot Jacques,

I am delighted to see this discovery in Egypt. It doesn't totally surprise me as it fits pretty much with my hypothesis on the possible authors of such art.

(Radical or progressive evolution « on: February 08, 2004, 01:33:31 PM »)

Actually I wouldn't be too surprised if some even earlier rock art of this style were to be discovered along the path of AMM from Africa to the Middle East and the rest of Europe.

Another note on this art style, while it seems to have disappeared in Western Europe during the Neolithic times, some beautiful naturalistic animal representation continued to be produced in Lybia around 1500 BC.

Paul Trehin

PS: For readers who would prefer a French version of this story here is an article on the subject in Molière's tongue: "Lascaux le long du Nil"

Dear Paul,

Thanks for the link to the French article. Reciprocally, here is a link to a (free) paper on the same story that just came out in Antiquity (HERE). Contrary to the usual press releases, it does present us with quite a few good shots of the engraved panels.

Jacques

[trehinp]

Thanks Jacques,

I was about to send that same reference here :-) There are indeed quite interesting pictures. The location of this site is also quite

With a "GOOGLE SEARCH" I have found, among other good references, a french speaking forum dedicated to egyptology where there are several other references including the one you just sent.  Click here for more

I have asked some questions to see if they have info that we could use.

Yours very friendly

Paul

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Thanks Jacques,

I was about to send that same reference here :-) There are indeed quite interesting pictures. The location of this site is also quite

With a "GOOGLE SEARCH" I have found, among other good references, a french speaking forum dedicated to egyptology where there are several other references including the one you just sent.  Click here for more

I have asked some questions to see if they have info that we could use.

Yours very friendly

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for the additonal links. And yes, the engravings are quite interesting, but I am curious about the "stylistic" interpretation and about the dates. I also wonder if Robert Bednarik will want to have something to say about this! His presence on the scene should lead to an exciting debate.

Cordialement,

Jacques

Jacques

[trehinp]

Paul,

Thanks for the additonal links. And yes, the engravings are quite interesting, but I am curious about the "stylistic" interpretation and about the dates. I also wonder if Robert Bednarik will want to have something to say about this! His presence on the scene should lead to an exciting debate.

Indeed, this discovery can but fuel Robert's continued opposition to the Euro centric view of palaeolithic art origins. We have exchanged several e-mail messages on this subject in relation to my hypothesis on savant syndrome and early palaeolithic art.

see "A brief history of cave art research", Robert G. Bednarik, from Encyclopedia of Cave and Karst Science, Fitzroy Dearborn Publishers, London 2002

Click here for full paper

This discovery of Egyptian palaeolithic art opens up quite an interesting field as so far there were very few examples oe realistic art outside Europe. American art being more generally in the schematic form linked to Neolithic art. Some Indian art was also in that vein. Australian Art is a big challenge as it skipped the phase of very realistic representations, using schematic representations from the begining. At least I have not been able to find realistic representations in the books on Australin art that I have read.

This Egyptian site is very much in line with the realistic animal representation style in Foz Coa (Portugal), Font de Gaume (France) and Romito (Italy).

With regard to the dates, as the discovery of Chauvet and Cosquer have demonstrated, it is almost impossible to link a specific style to a prehistoric period, regardless of how upsetting this may feel. Remember that Paul Bahn and Paul Pettitt went as far as questioning the datation of Chauvet paintings as it didn't fit their theories of art evolution. (P. Pettitt, ”L'ancienneté de la grotte Chauvet n'est pas démontrée”, La Recherche no 364, mai 2003, p. 21)

Yours very friendly

Paul

[trehinp]

While continuing my researches on the web about the Upper Palaeolithic art in Egypt, I discovered a very interesting website, written by Andie Byrnes,
which aludes to it. However, its scope goes far beyond the specific subject of Qurta sites.

Its content might very well be of interest to quite a few readers of this forum.

Perhaps did you already know about this website but I figured that it didn't cost much to inform you, at the risk of some repetition...

Prehistoric and Predynastic Egypt
http://www.predynastic.historians.co.uk/index.html

This site seems to be very complete and well documented on these Egyptian prehistoric periods.

But I'm not a specialis so I hope that some of you may ther confirm my feelings or on the contrary may set me back on the right course...

Yours sincerely.

Paul

[trehinp]

More info on the subject:

"Egyptian Palaeolithic Rock Art Found At Qurta, Kom Ombo" on "Anthropology.net" Click here for the text

There are interesting comments made by the author.

I hope that some additional scientific publications will soon be available.

Yours.

Paul

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

More info on the subject:

"Egyptian Palaeolithic Rock Art Found At Qurta, Kom Ombo" on "Anthropology.net" Click here for the text

There are interesting comments made by the author.

I hope that some additional scientific publications will soon be available.

Yours.

Paul

Paul,

Just a recent addition -- from National Geographic -- to the “Lascaux on the Nile”, story: CLICK HERE.

Not much new, except for the fact that -- as is made clear -- the 15,000 years old age being mentioned (twice) is just an estimate (whishful thinking?) based on absolutely no solid evidence. Similarly, I think that the attempt to establish a stylistic parallel with Lascaux is – given the evidence presented  so far -- a bit overdone. Personally, when I saw the few images that have circulated so far, they reminded me of the Côa Valley finds (HERE, and HERE), and the lengthy controversy surrounding it. Also, if National Geographic had not been in such a rush, to put out this story, we might have been able to read what Philip Smith and Morgan Tamplin would have had to say about this “rediscovery”. This said, I agree with you that we should wait for the promised Antiquity article.

Jacques

[trehinp]

Paul,

Just a recent addition -- from National Geographic -- to the “Lascaux on the Nile”, story: CLICK HERE.

Not much new, except for the fact that -- as is made clear -- the 15,000 years old age being mentioned (twice) is just an estimate (whishful thinking?) based on absolutely no solid evidence. Similarly, I think that the attempt to establish a stylistic parallel with Lascaux is – given the evidence presented  so far -- a bit overdone. Personally, when I saw the few images that have circulated so far, they reminded me of the Côa Valley finds (HERE, and HERE), and the lengthy controversy surrounding it. Also, if National Geographic had not been in such a rush, to put out this story, we might have been able to read what Philip Smith and Morgan Tamplin would have had to say about this “rediscovery”. This said, I agree with you that we should wait for the promised Antiquity article.

Jacques

Dear Jacques,

I completely agree, the dating of these masterpieces remain quite imprecise, like almost all open air rock engravings. It is the case in most of the Saharan examples, in the Australian Panaramittee art, and to a certain extent in places like Foz Coa in Portugal or Romito in Italy.

I have contacted Andie Birnes, a famous researcher in Egyptian history and prehistory we have established good exchanges. Hopefully she will keep me up to date with further advances with the dating of Qurta, Kom Ombo. Here is an extract of her e-mail to me:

In northern Africa, most of the dating has been done on typological grounds, many of which are very uncertain.  Have a look at the dating section on: my website . All attempts to draw up a chronological framework are plagued by arguments and disagreements.  This means that interpretation is very difficult, and tracing development of different art forms is often attempted, but always disputed.

Personally; I wouldn't be surprised by a very ancient date, perhaps even older than given in the various papers written so far. Most use the style of drawing as a reference while the experience of Chauvet Cave has shown how misleading this approach can be...

Given the probable earlier occupation of the land along the Nile valley, it is possible that this art be very early indeed.

With regard to the style, the nearest one, as far as I can tell, is that found at Romito Cave entrance in Calabria

Click here for more


Bull Picture 1


Bull Picture 2

Here too the dates are only provided by strata analysis, no carbon 14 dating available...

The beauty of these works remains fabulous and the fact that they look so much alike is mind boggling...

More when I will get it...

Paul

[trehinp]

An interesting hypothesis is proposed by Dirk Huyge, Royal Museums of Art and History in Brussels, to explain the similar styles of the Egyptian engravings and those of the European magdalenian art: "Huyge is not suggesting any direct connection between Paleolithic France and Egypt. Instead, he said the similarities in the art likely occurred because the artists shared a common way of life."Click here for more

We are still missing more scientific datations, at least my search on the internet didn't find any new article so far...

Yours

Paul