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Author Topic: Cognitive basis to representative art  (Read 3401 times)
trehinp
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« on: June 24, 2007, 02:23:56 AM »

In order not to deviate from the “News from the Vogelherd Cave” topic started by Jacques, I have started a new one to discuss the subject of cognitive processes necessary to produce animal representations, be it in the form of figurines or in the form of 2 D images on a more or less flat surface.

So I continue here the discussion we started with Anne:

The chances are that the mammoth figurine *was* probably made by "modern" humans, but I am under the impression that there are no "diagnostic" tools or fossils at Vogelherd --- though I may be quite wrong.  In any case, I also admit that yes, the mammoth figurine is more "elaborated" in some ways than Berekhat Ram, but I think whoever made the Berekhat Ram figurine and whoever made this mammoth carving, probably were thinking along rather similar lines. 
Anne G

Indeed Anne, this is probably the case. Thinking about this, it is already a remarkable cognitive process. It requires one to recognise natural features, on a piece of bone or stone, which recall the shapes of the start of lines of an animal. It demands a transformation of the perceived stimuli (orientation, size, colour of the object), a process of abstraction to project onto that object the potential animal representation and finally planning a series of carving and other interventions on the object to refine the resemblance to the animal or in rare cases human beings.

This is for example the case of the “Roche Cottard mask”.

I am not aware of any psychological study that would analyse the mechanisms at play in such an endeavour. I assume that it is likely to be an easier process than having to project the carving of an animal shape from a plain piece of bone without pre-existing features remembering the animal shape.

Projection of an image on a 2 D surface is an altogether far more complex cognitive process. There hundreds of publications have tried to give elements that allow a paertial understanding of this mechanism. It suffice to look at the complexity of computer programs which are reproducing 3 D scenes on a 2 D screen to have an idea of the difficult task that is behind such a 2D representation of space…

Yet in Chauvet and later on throughout the Magdalenian, human beings have managed to produce 2 D images of an extraordinary quality. In many cases the “artists” were using embedded features pre-existing on the cave’s walls.

Very few papers have tried to analyze this aspect of Palaeolithic art creation. Considering that we don’t differ cognitively from these people, we might want to use current understanding of such processes to try to examine the possible mechanisms that were necessary to produce such images.

As some of you already know I have analysed some of these processes among the specific population of “Autistic Savants” for example most of these people have an “eidetic” memory which enables them to remember images in excruciating details. Further more the have the capability to transform these memories in 2 D representations without having been taught. (note that this feature is also observed with music where not only they can remember thousands of tunes but manage to reproduce them with an exceptional ease and in the beginning without music lessons)

My question once again is “Could it be that some of the very early 2D representations were done by people which we would now call Autistic Savants ?”

Are there other studies that could propose another explanation to the creation of such remarkable drawings during the Palaeolithic period.

Yours sincerely.

Paul
PS, I haven’t clogged my post with bibliographical references but I would be glad to send the ones that are relevant to this topic to any one interested.
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Paul Trehin
Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2007, 11:15:28 AM »

Dear Paul,

It was a good idea to change the "topic". Thanks. I really don't have much to say at this time about your favourite "autism" hypothesis, except that it is a bit too reductionist for my taste. More later, I hope.

In the meantime, you can have a look ( HERE) at my response to Anne, re: her comparison between Berekhat Ram and the new Vogelherd mammoth.

Jacques



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trehinp
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 11:57:58 AM »

I really don't have much to say at this time about your favourite "autism" hypothesis, except that it is a bit too reductionist for my taste. More later, I hope.

Thank you Jacques,

I agree, indeed I am eager to see my hypothesis being challenged. As a great admirer of Karl Popper I believe that theories must be refutable and that the progress in science comes from that process, at least in part. I'm also fond of Thomas Kuhn analysis of the difficulty new theories have to be broadly accepted.

From a popperian point of view, it is true that my hypothesis, which regards only the most realistic forms of Palaeolithic animal representations, needs to be challenged by specialists of palaeoanthropology. So far it was mainly tested against specialists of autism who werent the least surprised by this hypothesis. Some of the most advanced researchers in the field of autism have discussed with me and seem to be convinced that this hypothesis makes a lot of sense. However, they know very little about prehistoric art... Hence the need for a challenge coming from that other group of specialists of palaeo-anthropology.

I had a few brief discussions with Michel Lorblanchet who was shaken by the discovery of "innate" drawing skills among autistic children but still had difficulties to establish the link with prehistoric art.

I had a rather supportive attitude from Robert Bednaric. I think that it is in line with his veiw that Eurocentrist theories of art origin need to be challenged... And my hypothesis indeed challenges the current theories. In a sense it may be even more basic than the “art for art sake” since in most cases autistic savants don’t even have the desire to show their products to others. It is mainly a way to fix, in a snapshot view, some images of important things for them.

I had hopped that I could present my hypothesis to a seminar regularly organised by Denis Vialou at the “French national Museum of natural history”. But we failed to find an opportunity on the agenda of one of the sessions.

Nicholas Humphrey Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science London School of Economics, used the same “autism” hypothesis, completely independently of my own work, in a paper he published in 1998. His conclusions differed considerably from mine though. We have worked together since 2000. I was invited to present my hypothesis at one of the regular seminars of the Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science in November 2006.

We are hopeful to finally organise a seminar on “IMAGES and UNDERSTANDING”, in 2008 with a broader scope than the one envisioned two years ago and which we couldn’t finalise for lack of financial resources…

Here are a few of the questions that will be addressed at this seminar

   Did people discover likenesses - e.g. faces in the clouds or in pebbles  - shadows on the ground or on walls - long before they developed the skill to make them?
   What is the connection between images made on a wall and imagery made in the head - eidetic imagery, basic perception unfiltered by conceptual representation?  , hallucinations? What are the cognitive processes involved in projecting 3D perception on a 2D surface?
   Which came first, the image or the concept? What is the relation between drawing something and naming it? Why did symbolic marking precede representational art?
   Were paintings such as those at Lascaux always intended to represent an absent entity? Did they have a symbolic content?
   Should we regard cave painting as “art”, in anything like the modern sense, or was its function something quite else (e.g. sexual display)? Were they meant to be shown?  Could they be the expression of a compulsive need to fix a moment in time?
   Autistic savants demonstrate exceptional artistic capabilities, apparently as innate gifts. Could such savant skills have existed in the upper Palaeolithic times and explain some of these exceptional forms of art?
   Did symbolic thinking evolve on its own path? Were the refined pictures of the Upper Palaeolithic “exceptions” in the overall culture development?
   How might the realisation that a graphic image can stand for something have contributed to the development of symbolic thinking?
   How might all this tie in with recent discussion of the “extended mind”?

As you see this seminar will address several of the questions that were asked on PALANTH in the discussions about the Vogelherd mammoth and Berekat Ram figurine about the shape recognition and modification, then representation on a 2 D surface of a 3 D subject.

It will go far beyond prehistoric art analysis, “mainstreaming”, in a sense, our field of interest to the broader scope of the comprehension human consciousness.

Pre-discussion here might help clarify the subjects from a prehistoric point of view.

Paul
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Paul Trehin
lagarvelho
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 04:43:44 PM »

Paul:

This conference sure sounds interesting, and I wish I could be there, but that's another story.  But w/regard to some of the issues you have raised here, I they may be something of a "mixed bag".  Robert Bednarik is well known for proposing that the origins of "modern" behavior(and art) lie somewhere in the Lower Paleolithic, and his thesis on this is quite a bit like yours.  OTOH, I'm not entirely sure that "autistic savants" would have been emotionally capable of producing the drawings you see on the walls of Lascaux or other caves, though they might well have been *very* good at producing *some* pieces like the mammoth carving.  Or they may not.  People who are *not* "autistic savants" have been known to do things like this, too.  It's more a matter, IMO, of having what I call an "open imagination" and learning the techniques of working in certain kinds of media.  Combine these elements and people with the right kind of training and temperament may produce such pieces.  In paleolithic times, the techniques were probably common knowledge, and someone with the right kind of imagination may well have "seen" figures in mammoth tusks or the like.  But maybe this conference of yours will begin to raise questions that can be researched.
Anne G
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trehinp
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 09:27:12 AM »

This conference sure sounds interesting, and I wish I could be there, but that's another story.

Anne, this is going to be a workshop rather than a conference. For information I won’t be in the programme committee selecting invited participants.
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But w/regard to some of the issues you have raised here, I they may be something of a "mixed bag".  Robert Bednarik is well known for proposing that the origins of "modern" behavior(and art) lie somewhere in the Lower Paleolithic, and his thesis on this is quite a bit like yours.

Sorry for having tried to put too many ideas in a single post…

Robert Bednaric interest in my hypothesis is only linked to the fact that it challenges the other theories of art apparition, and in particular the theories of a late “big bang” In cognitive abilities such as postulated by Richard Klein, Steve Mithen, Ian Tattersall and a few others.

My theory proposes that there was indeed a continuous development of culture, on the one side and some exceptional artistic picks starting in the Upper Palaeolithic. The continuity of the “general culture” may have been staring somewhere in the Lower Palaeolithic if not earlier, and continuing throughout the Upper Palaeolithic in the form of very schematic shapes, rectangles with chessboard like separations, tectiform signs or key shaped symbols (as found besides the gorgeous realistic animal representations in most caves), and later on, stick men or animal figurative representations during the Neolithic.

I see the truly exceptional naturalistic animal representations of the Upper Palaeolithic as “points outside the curve”, made by exceptional people, not by the main stream culture which was producing the symbolic shapes. The fact that these naturalistic cave art manifestations are so sparse in time (even in a same cave they are often separated by thousands of years) is sufficient evidence of their exceptionality.

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OTOH, I'm not entirely sure that "autistic savants" would have been emotionally capable of producing the drawings you see on the walls of Lascaux or other caves, though they might well have been *very* good at producing *some* pieces like the mammoth carving.  Or they may not.
 

In my papers, and even more so in the latest versions of my presentation, I argue on the contrary that perhaps it is in part the lesser emotional character of such “autistic savants” that may have enabled them to produce such great work. But there are many other autistic like cognitive characteristics that do match the appearance of a large number of the Upper Palaeolithic naturalistic art allowing the comparison with the art produced by some autistic savants.

Quote
People who are *not* "autistic savants" have been known to do things like this, too.  It's more a matter, IMO, of having what I call an "open imagination" and learning the techniques of working in certain kinds of media.  Combine these elements and people with the right kind of training and temperament may produce such pieces.
 

I agree with you but only partly, there are some exceptional creative people who aren’t “autistic savants”, but in my opinion who have some autistic traits, albeit bellow a pathological level. Hans Asperger, one of the very first pioneers of autism with Leo Kanner, was saying : “It seems that for success in science and art, a dash of autism is essential.”
Even later on in art history, truly exceptional talents were very rare. Even though during the Renaissance there were hundreds of painters and sculptors, there were only a handful of truly exceptional artists whose works could be remembered through time: Michel Angelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Botticelli, and a couple of other. I’m not claiming these were all “autistic savants” but certainly exceptional people and some like Leonardo had some traits (likewise Mozart later on). The rest of the artists could more or less reproduce/imitate but not create. Margaret Boden, a great philosopher of science talked about “hard creativity” for such individuals and of “soft creativity” for the others.

[/quote]In paleolithic times, the techniques were probably common knowledge, and someone with the right kind of imagination may well have "seen" figures in mammoth tusks or the like. [/quote]

I have started to answer that question just above: I would tend to think that, no, the drawing and painting techniques probably weren’t common knowledge. I don’t see how other AMM, even 40 K years BP, would be so different from us as to be all capable of exceptional art production contrary to what we can see nowadays.

In her fiction book “The Shelters of Stones” Jeans Auel attributes the artistic know how to someone special, not to the shaman whom she pictures as calling upon the talents of the artist. In my own analysis I think that this might be a far more realistic view than having the shamans as artists themselves. (The comparison with the renaissance art is here too a striking one: the Bishops and Cardinals were not the ones painting the walls of churches…)

It is not impossible that the shamans may have noticed early talents in some individuals (“autistic savants” or not) and may have nurtured them to the benefit of the tribe’s religious endeavours.

We hope that some of these points will be addressed during the workshop as well as several other ones to challenge them… Indeed this workshop should prove to be quite a fascinating one. Let’s hope that we will succeed in finding the appropriate resources to make it happen.

Paul
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Paul Trehin
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 11:54:20 AM »

What is forgotten here is that hunters whose very existence depends upon a lifetime of tracking, killing, and butchering animals will learn the exact anatomy and silhouette of the beasts starting from early childhood.  Just as scholars can recite from memory every word of the Koran,  the Bible, the Vedas, so those people were visual or eidetic scholars (naturally some more technically expressive than others).  It is very difficult for us today to fully appreciate the immediacy and profound importance of the beasts - both living and doubtless in dreams - that gave of their essence and vitality to humanity.

I personally find the idea of autism or aspergers an armchair theory (no insult implied).

maria guzman
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 12:24:32 PM »

One thing I neglected to point out: the Great Masters in the arts have only risen to fame in exceptional cases.  Having been involved in various aspects of the art world in earlier days I learned the  interesting fact that many, many non-artists or 'weekend painters' are highly talented and only fate, financial pressure, lack of early encouragement or role models prevented them from pursuing a career in the field.  So many of these amateurs never considered themselves particularly 'artistic' but only enjoyed their 'hobby'.  In any culture the ratio of fine artists and/or craftsmen depends largely upon the respect in which the arts are held, and the need or 'usefulness' of an artist to society. 

maria guzman
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rmacfarl
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 06:20:52 PM »

One thing I neglected to point out: the Great Masters in the arts have only risen to fame in exceptional cases.  Having been involved in various aspects of the art world in earlier days I learned the  interesting fact that many, many non-artists or 'weekend painters' are highly talented and only fate, financial pressure, lack of early encouragement or role models prevented them from pursuing a career in the field.  So many of these amateurs never considered themselves particularly 'artistic' but only enjoyed their 'hobby'.  In any culture the ratio of fine artists and/or craftsmen depends largely upon the respect in which the arts are held, and the need or 'usefulness' of an artist to society. 

maria guzman

Perhaps this story is an interesting commentary on how Great Masters are recognised as such:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/24m-for-possum-painting-that-once-fetched-1200/2007/07/24/1185043120918.html
http://tinyurl.com/ynjzx9

The National Gallery of Australia has just purchased a magificent painting by the late Clifford Possum Tjapaltjarri, an aboriginal artist from central Australia, for A$2.4 million (about US$2 million). The price is a 2,000-fold increase on the $1200 he originally sold it for - & of course his family gain nothing from the increase in value...
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Ross Macfarlane
trehinp
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 01:20:03 AM »

Thanks for your comments Maria,

What is forgotten here is that hunters whose very existence depends upon a lifetime of tracking, killing, and butchering animals will learn the exact anatomy and silhouette of the beasts starting from early childhood.  Just as scholars can recite from memory every word of the Koran,  the Bible, the Vedas, so those people were visual or eidetic scholars (naturally some more technically expressive than others).  It is very difficult for us today to fully appreciate the immediacy and profound importance of the beasts - both living and doubtless in dreams - that gave of their essence and vitality to humanity.

There is evidently a great difference in the knowledge of animals then and now. Even hunters now wouldn't know as much about animals as thos who depended upon that knowledge for survival. But there is a huge gap between knowing details about animals and the capability to reproduce them on a 2 D surface.

Take a modern example; many people know very well and have a passion for cars. Sme depend on them very much too. But how many can draw cars realisticaly? However, most of us can draw cars schematicaly. The purpose there being to exchange information with another person, not giving a faithful representation of the car.

To go back to the prehistoric hunters, I think that we should distinguish the Palaeolithic art and the Neolithic art.
The Neolithic artists were doing a schematic representation of animals and of the hunting scene. In this art, the purpose is clearly to telle "a story". While during the Palaeolithic period, whereas the representation is exceptionally naturalistic in most cases, there are no hunting scenes, no story told or very rarely.

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I personally find the idea of autism or aspergers an armchair theory (no insult implied).

maria guzman
I would love to have some more detailed and argumented critiscism about this hypothesis that I developped and which was also developped by Pr. Nicholas Humphrey. Pr Alan Snyder, from Sydney, has developped a fairly similar theory.

Specifically on the Autism hypothesis, have you read Nick Humphrey's paper and mines on the subject?

If yes please, by all means, do write comments on them. They can be as critical as you think they deserve to be. I am indeed eager to receive such refutation, in the Karl Popper sense of the word. That's how theories can be strengthened or eliminated.

Note also that as an advocate for people with disabilities, I find the "armchair theory" metaphor rather offending for people in armchairs...

Yours sincerely.

Paul
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Paul Trehin
trehinp
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 10:52:36 AM »

One thing I neglected to point out: the Great Masters in the arts have only risen to fame in exceptional cases.  Having been involved in various aspects of the art world in earlier days I learned the  interesting fact that many, many non-artists or 'weekend painters' are highly talented and only fate, financial pressure, lack of early encouragement or role models prevented them from pursuing a career in the field.  So many of these amateurs never considered themselves particularly 'artistic' but only enjoyed their 'hobby'.  In any culture the ratio of fine artists and/or craftsmen depends largely upon the respect in which the arts are held, and the need or 'usefulness' of an artist to society. 

maria guzman

I agree with the general statement, In fact my own autistic son, who has an exceptional talent in urbanistic invention (http://urville.com), could have been completely ignored as he didn't even think of showing his work earlier on.

But this is not the point I was making. My point is that even more recently than in prehistory, exceptional talents remained very rare.

Take the example of Renaissance artists. Even of those "masters who reached fame" during their life time, only a very few had enough genious to make their works remain considered as "masterpieces"  after several centuries. The other were good disciples but lacked the extra talent that made their masters so out of the "normal" abilities. This is in my view the difference between "craftsmen" and "creative artists".

Actually, trully creative artists may not reach fame during their life time but be celebrated centuries after their death...

I think that artists of the palaeolithic times, who were drawing or painting the masterpieces that we all know, belong to that same exceptional group of people who are completely out of the usual abilities of even trained artists, a very rare crowd indeed.

Yours sincerely

Paul
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 06:59:39 PM »

Paul:

I won't argue with your idea.  It is certainly interesting, and perhaps worth following up on.  But my skepticism remains.  I really think people whose lives depended on intimate knowledge of the organisms they hunted, would be generally very good at representing them.  So it also might be worth considering the possibility that perfectly "normal" people painted these representations for a variety of reasons(e.g. as a sort of "thank you" for a successful hunt or something like that), and it's therefore quite possible that just about everyone in that particular tribe, clan, community, etc., had decent capability to do this if the occasion arose.  Some people would have been known as particularly talented in this area, but it's quite likely, IMO, that everyone had the necessary skills.
Anne G
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trehinp
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2007, 07:20:37 AM »

I won't argue with your idea.  It is certainly interesting, and perhaps worth following up on.  But my skepticism remains.  I really think people whose lives depended on intimate knowledge of the organisms they hunted, would be generally very good at representing them.  So it also might be worth considering the possibility that perfectly "normal" people painted these representations for a variety of reasons(e.g. as a sort of "thank you" for a successful hunt or something like that), and it's therefore quite possible that just about everyone in that particular tribe, clan, community, etc., had decent capability to do this if the occasion arose.  Some people would have been known as particularly talented in this area, but it's quite likely, IMO, that everyone had the necessary skills.
Anne G
Hello Anne,

I like people arguing upon my hyopthesis. It is the only way to make progress there is...

While I aggre with you that these people who so heavilly depended upon the hunt for survival must have had an intimate knowledge of the animals, there is in my oppinion no directlink between having a profound knowledge about a subject and being able to draw that subject in a recognisable manner...

If we admt that Homo Sapeins Sapiens of the Upper Palaeolithic were extremely close to our cognitive abilities, then there is no reason why the proportion of people capable of drawing should be higher at that time. In fact one might expect that it was probably the contrary. Contemporary children go to school where they are taught the basis of drawing. Yet very few adults nowadays are capable of drawing naturalistic pictures of whatever they really fancy.

I would aggree that later on, with the apparition of Neolithic art, most people were able to give some sort of a representation with "stickmen" schematic images.

What is fascinating in the Upper Palaeolithic drawings and paintings is that it bypassed the "simple drawing techniques" period to go directly to very realistic images.

I think that you are onto the same track as I am when you say that  "some would have been known as particularly talented"? That is indeed an important point, I believe that some of the exceptionaly tallented artists were observed and then used by Shamans to help them anchor their domination upon the tribe.
 One important point that I should perhaps stress more : I have used "Autistis and Asperger's Savants" for two reasons one statistical as they do represent the majority of savant cases. Two, This is a domain that I really have studied otherwise in my activity on Autism Advocacy.

There are however other "savant" that aren't autistic? Some cases of Dementia have unleached exceptional artistic creativity in people previously talent less... Other cases of savatism come from head injuries, something that hunters of the palaeolithic times may well have exprerienced... The difference though is that these late onset of savant skills are influenced by previous art knowledge even if the people were not capable of producing art by themselves before their head accident...

Please let me know your views.

Yours sincerely

Paul
Other question: if every one had the skills why are such masterpieces so sparce in time? There are periods of thousands of years without any drawings or paintings...

Feel free to "torture" my hypothesis as much as you want. It will help me.
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Paul Trehin
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