Holen Cites Dates for Old Crow Site in Current Mammoth Trumpet

[Charlie Hatchett]

Hi Jacques.

I see one of your sites got some press this week:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/old%20crow.jpg

Respectfully,

Charlie

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Hi Jacques.

I see one of your sites got some press this week:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/old%20crow.jpg

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for passing this on. I had not seen it. I usually get access to Mammoth Trumpet via the Center website (WWW.CENTERFIRSTAMERICANS.COM), but it hasn't been accesssible for a while. I was told that, a while ago. some hacker(s) managed  to cause serious damage to the system. Apparently, the site is presently being rebuilt.

Jacques

[Charlie Hatchett]

Hi Jacques.

I see one of your sites got some press this week:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/old%20crow.jpg

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for passing this on. I had not seen it. I usually get access to Mammoth Trumpet via the Center website (WWW.CENTERFIRSTAMERICANS.COM), but it hasn't been accesssible for a while. I was told that, a while ago. some hacker(s) managed  to cause serious damage to the system. Apparently, the site is presently being rebuilt.

Jacques

No problem, Jacques.

Good to see your site receive the attention it deserves. Do you agree with the dates Holen cites? Are the bison and mammoth bones both from Old Crow?

Yes, I've heard the same thing: Somebody hacked the CSFA servers. They've been down for a while. I bet Waters et al. are ready to strangle someone!!

Respectfully,

Charlie

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Hi Jacques.

I see one of your sites got some press this week:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/old%20crow.jpg

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for passing this on. I had not seen it. I usually get access to Mammoth Trumpet via the Center website (WWW.CENTERFIRSTAMERICANS.COM), but it hasn't been accesssible for a while. I was told that, a while ago. some hacker(s) managed  to cause serious damage to the system. Apparently, the site is presently being rebuilt.

Jacques

No problem, Jacques.

Good to see your site receive the attention it deserves. Do you agree with the dates Holen cites? Are the bison and mammoth bones both from Old Crow?

Yes, I've heard the same thing: Somebody hacked the CSFA servers. They've been down for a while. I bet Waters et al. are ready to strangle someone!!

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Well, from what little I have been able to read from the Mammoth Trumpet paper, I think that they are from my work at Bluefish Cave II  and from Morlan's work on some of the Old Crow River collections. I would add that they are likely to have been pulled out of Bluefish Caves and Old Crow Basin: A New Rapport, Jacques Cinq-Mars and Richard Morlan which you may have seen. The paper can be found HERE.

Best,

Jacques

[Charlie Hatchett]

Hi Jacques.

I see one of your sites got some press this week:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/old%20crow.jpg

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for passing this on. I had not seen it. I usually get access to Mammoth Trumpet via the Center website (WWW.CENTERFIRSTAMERICANS.COM), but it hasn't been accesssible for a while. I was told that, a while ago. some hacker(s) managed  to cause serious damage to the system. Apparently, the site is presently being rebuilt.

Jacques

No problem, Jacques.

Good to see your site receive the attention it deserves. Do you agree with the dates Holen cites? Are the bison and mammoth bones both from Old Crow?

Yes, I've heard the same thing: Somebody hacked the CSFA servers. They've been down for a while. I bet Waters et al. are ready to strangle someone!!

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Well, from what little I have been able to read from the Mammoth Trumpet paper, I think that they are from my work at Bluefish Cave II  and from Morlan's work on some of the Old Crow River collections. I would add that they are likely to have been pulled out of Bluefish Caves and Old Crow Basin: A New Rapport, Jacques Cinq-Mars and Richard Morlan which you may have seen. The paper can be found HERE.

Best,

Jacques

Jacques.

Tonight I'll scan the rest of the article and e-mail it to you. I'm not sure if I've read the particular paper to which you refer.
I'll download it. Thanks!

Respectfully,

Charlie

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Hi Jacques.

I see one of your sites got some press this week:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/old%20crow.jpg

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for passing this on. I had not seen it. I usually get access to Mammoth Trumpet via the Center website (WWW.CENTERFIRSTAMERICANS.COM), but it hasn't been accesssible for a while. I was told that, a while ago. some hacker(s) managed  to cause serious damage to the system. Apparently, the site is presently being rebuilt.

Jacques

No problem, Jacques.

Good to see your site receive the attention it deserves. Do you agree with the dates Holen cites? Are the bison and mammoth bones both from Old Crow?

Yes, I've heard the same thing: Somebody hacked the CSFA servers. They've been down for a while. I bet Waters et al. are ready to strangle someone!!

Respectfully,

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Well, from what little I have been able to read from the Mammoth Trumpet paper, I think that they are from my work at Bluefish Cave II  and from Morlan's work on some of the Old Crow River collections. I would add that they are likely to have been pulled out of Bluefish Caves and Old Crow Basin: A New Rapport, Jacques Cinq-Mars and Richard Morlan which you may have seen. The paper can be found HERE.

Best,

Jacques

Jacques.

Tonight I'll scan the rest of the article and e-mail it to you. I'm not sure if I've read the particular paper to which you refer.
I'll download it. Thanks!

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

There is no need to copy the Mammoth Trumpet issue, I just receive an original one. Thanks anyway. One of the Figs. (page 16, lower right) allow me to confirm that his reference to the 29,000 ky date is correct. The object at the bottom of the Fig. is a mammoth bone flake that was found out-of-context, along the banks of the Old Crow River. I have a more readable picture of it somewhere. If I can find it, I'll upload it to the Palanth ftp site. As for the 24,000 ky date, it is from Bluefish  (an average of two dates, one from a mammoth bone core and the other from it's refittable flake).

Jacques

[Charlie Hatchett]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Here is one of the most pertinent reference on the dating of the Old Crow River culturally modified fossils bones. As it should, my only copy is buried in a box, somewhere. Be patient. With a bit of time, I’ll should be able to find it!

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92.

Jacques

[Charlie Hatchett]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Here is one of the most pertinent reference on the dating of the Old Crow River culturally modified fossils bones. As it should, my only copy is buried in a box, somewhere. Be patient. With a bit of time, I’ll should be able to find it!

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92.

Jacques

Thank you, Jacques.

I'll also try to track this booger down:

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Here is one of the most pertinent reference on the dating of the Old Crow River culturally modified fossils bones. As it should, my only copy is buried in a box, somewhere. Be patient. With a bit of time, I’ll should be able to find it!

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92.

Jacques

Thank you, Jacques.

I'll also try to track this booger down:

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92

Charlie,

Bravo if you can put your hands on it. Let me know. This said, I should get a copy of the paper within the next three days. I hope! The problem with the CJA is that it's not , as far as I know, online. Typically Canadian. In the meantime, I should note that a few of the Bluefish dates were obtained through the RIDDL lab, i.e, Nelson, Brown, Vogel, and Southon. These guys were quite, active and efficient, until lack of funding caused the lab to fold. The same has just happened to the University of Toronto Isotraces operation. Again, so Canadian.

Best,

Jacques

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Here is one of the most pertinent reference on the dating of the Old Crow River culturally modified fossils bones. As it should, my only copy is buried in a box, somewhere. Be patient. With a bit of time, I’ll should be able to find it!

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92.

Jacques

Thank you, Jacques.

I'll also try to track this booger down:

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92

Charlie,

Bravo if you can put your hands on it. Let me know. This said, I should get a copy of the paper within the next three days. I hope! The problem with the CJA is that it's not , as far as I know, online. Typically Canadian. In the meantime, I should note that a few of the Bluefish dates were obtained through the RIDDL lab, i.e, Nelson, Brown, Vogel, and Southon. These guys were quite, active and efficient, until lack of funding caused the lab to fold. The same has just happened to the University of Toronto Isotraces operation. Again, so Canadian.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Just to let you know that I received the Morlan & al paper this morning. After a quick reread, it does appear that the dates mentioned in the Mammoth Trumpet article on Holen's work were indeed obtained from bones discovered (mostly) along the banks of the Old Crow River. More later.

Jacques

[Charlie Hatchett]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Here is one of the most pertinent reference on the dating of the Old Crow River culturally modified fossils bones. As it should, my only copy is buried in a box, somewhere. Be patient. With a bit of time, I’ll should be able to find it!

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92.

Jacques

Thank you, Jacques.

I'll also try to track this booger down:

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92

Charlie,

Bravo if you can put your hands on it. Let me know. This said, I should get a copy of the paper within the next three days. I hope! The problem with the CJA is that it's not , as far as I know, online. Typically Canadian. In the meantime, I should note that a few of the Bluefish dates were obtained through the RIDDL lab, i.e, Nelson, Brown, Vogel, and Southon. These guys were quite, active and efficient, until lack of funding caused the lab to fold. The same has just happened to the University of Toronto Isotraces operation. Again, so Canadian.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Just to let you know that I received the Morlan & al paper this morning. After a quick reread, it does appear that the dates mentioned in the Mammoth Trumpet article on Holen's work were indeed obtained from bones discovered (mostly) along the banks of the Old Crow River. More later.

Jacques

Wow! That was fast. I received it. Thanks.
I'll definitely read it over the next couple of days.
I must say, 42,000 B.P. is a nice step back, rivaling
informal reports from Topper. What's your best guess:
Were these people Hss? Thanks again for the ref.

Respectfully,

Charlie

[Charlie Hatchett]

Good deal, Jacques.

I started to scan it when I realized the article was 7 pages long. It would have taken forever to download.

29,000 B.P.! Nice. Haven't similar dates have been noted in northeastern Siberia at the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site? From where is Holen getting the 36,500 and 42,000 B.P. dates?

Respectfully,

Charlie

Charlie,

Without specific refence(s), it's difficult to pinpoint the exact source of this info, but given the geographic reference (Old Crow basin), these dates were obviously obtained by Richard Morlan from culturally modified bones discovered in the fossiliferous deposits of the Old Crow River. You should be able to find additional and more precise information by looking at the publication I mentioned earlier: HERE.

And while you read it all, including the list of references, I may try – if I find time --to through my files in order to provide you with something more specific.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Here is one of the most pertinent reference on the dating of the Old Crow River culturally modified fossils bones. As it should, my only copy is buried in a box, somewhere. Be patient. With a bit of time, I’ll should be able to find it!

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92.

Jacques

Thank you, Jacques.

I'll also try to track this booger down:

Morlan, R,E,, D.E. Nelson, T.A. Brown, J.S. Vogel and J.R. Southon 1990 Accelerator mass spectrometry dates on bones from Old Crow basin, northern Yukon Territory, Canadian Journal of Archaeology 14:75-92

Charlie,

Bravo if you can put your hands on it. Let me know. This said, I should get a copy of the paper within the next three days. I hope! The problem with the CJA is that it's not , as far as I know, online. Typically Canadian. In the meantime, I should note that a few of the Bluefish dates were obtained through the RIDDL lab, i.e, Nelson, Brown, Vogel, and Southon. These guys were quite, active and efficient, until lack of funding caused the lab to fold. The same has just happened to the University of Toronto Isotraces operation. Again, so Canadian.

Best,

Jacques

Charlie,

Just to let you know that I received the Morlan & al paper this morning. After a quick reread, it does appear that the dates mentioned in the Mammoth Trumpet article on Holen's work were indeed obtained from bones discovered (mostly) along the banks of the Old Crow River. More later.

Jacques

Wow! That was fast. I received it. Thanks.
I'll definitely read it over the next couple of days.
I must say, 42,000 B.P. is a nice step back, rivaling
informal reports from Topper. What's your best guess:
Were these people Hss? Thanks again for the ref.

Respectfully,

Charlie

You know me, Jacques: always one to ask questions.

First, I note in Morlan et al. (1990) that Homo sapiens were probably the agency that utilized the bone flaking tech. Do you know if Morlan et al. purposely left the distinction between Archaic and Modern Hss undefined? The microblade and burin technologies found in the Bluefish Caves seem to point to Hss. Were these artifacts recovered from the same strata as the bone dated to ca. 25,000 B.P.?



Second, do you happen to have images of the proboscidean bone dated to 42,000 +1200/-1400, from  CRH 15? This is a remarkably early date for Hss in the northern latitudes.

Respectfully,

Charlie

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

You know me, Jacques: always one to ask questions.

First, I note in Morlan et al. (1990) that Homo sapiens were probably the agency that utilized the bone flaking tech. Do you know if Morlan et al. purposely left the distinction between Archaic and Modern Hss undefined?

As far as I can recall, this Archaic/Modern Hss distinction you refer to was never discussed or taken into consideration. Because of the lack of resolution of the earliest dates (at or around 40,000), it was just assumed that the earliest  Northern Yukon dates fell pretty close to the MP-UP transition ages that were coming to light from farther west in Southern Siberia.

And now, it’s my turn to ask a question. What do you exactly mean by Archaic/Modern Hss?

The microblade and burin technologies found in the Bluefish Caves seem to point to Hss. Were these artifacts recovered from the same strata as the bone dated to ca. 25,000 B.P.?

Given the complex stratigraphy of the Bluefish Cave II deposit, it’s very difficult to attribute precise ages to specific stone artifacts. But for a microblade core found in a clear mid-Holocene context, all the other stone tools (microblade cores, burins, microblades, etc.) were found in stratigraphic contexts that allow me to suggest that they could well predate 12,000 years ago, and this by many millennia. Whether or not they can be associated with the traces of a 25,000 B.P. of a human presence, I can’t tell at this time. And to answer the first part of your question, yes, it’s likely that all the cultural material found at Bluefish (stone tools as well as culturally modified bones) can be attributed to an H.s.s. presence.

Second, do you happen to have images of the proboscidean bone dated to 42,000 +1200/-1400, from  CRH 15? This is a remarkably early date for Hss in the northern latitudes.

Respectfully,

Charlie

I have a picture of it somewhere, but I can assure you that it’ll take me a while to retrieve it and fix it up!

In the meantime, the picture of the “bone flake” we talked about earlier, i.e. the one shown in the Mammoth Trumpet, has now been uploaded to the Palanth FTP site. You can dowload it by clicking HERE.

Best regards,

Jacques