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Author Topic: Genes & the Mother of all Clicks  (Read 11565 times)
Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« on: March 18, 2003, 07:44:15 AM »

All,

Well hidden in today’s New York Times is a piece by N. Wade that reports on the significance of an "amalgam" that is made (again, if my fading memory serves me right) between the relatively rare "click languages" of Southern Africa and the speakers of two such languages that are genetically viewed as representing a very early case of divergence, split, branching off, etc., dating, it is said, to more than 100,000 years ago.

Now, I suppose that this could be viewed as a good example of proper interdisciplinarity and could have been equally relevant for a Molecular Biology Board posting. But what I am most interested in (hopefully in terms of feedback from linguistically inclined Forum members), is that part of the story that deals with the linguistic arguments that are presented in favour of the assumed very great, Late Pleistocene antiquity of the languages in question. My understanding, here, is that linguistic analysis is not very helpful when dealing with this type of antiquity. If molecular biology can at least provide us with what is (at the very best) vague and uncertain approximations of long chronologies, it is certainly not the case for linguistic analyses that are rather silent aboutgreat time depths.  In other words, can we, realistically, make such attempts at articulating or harmonizing two data sets that are, given the present circumstances, far from compatible? Is it possible, with such an exercise, to go much beyond the usual level of the "just-so-story"?

Quote

In Click Languages, an Echo of the Tongues of the Ancients

By NICHOLAS WADE
The New York Times, March 18, 2003


Do some of today's languages still hold a whisper of the ancient mother tongue spoken by the first modern humans? Many linguists say language changes far too fast for that to be possible. But a new genetic study underlines the extreme antiquity of a special group of languages, raising the possibility that their distinctive feature was part of the ancestral human mother tongue.
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They are the click languages of southern Africa. About 30 survive, spoken by peoples like the San, traditional hunters and gatherers, and the Khwe, who include hunters and herders.

Each language has a set of four or five click sounds, which are essentially double consonants made by sucking the tongue down from the roof of the mouth. Outside of Africa, the only language known to use clicks is Damin, an extinct aboriginal language in Australia that was taught only to men for initiation rites.

Some of the Bantu-speaking peoples who reached southern Africa from their homeland in western Africa some 2,000 years ago have borrowed certain clicks from the Khwe, one use being to substitute for consonants in taboo words.

There are reasons to assume that the click languages may be very old. One is that the click speakers themselves, particularly a group of hunter-gatherers of the Kalahari, belong to an extremely ancient genetic lineage, according to analysis of their DNA…


To read the full article, CLICK HERE

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colin
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2003, 08:34:56 AM »

Jacques
There was a similar story in today's Independent in the UK (except the date was given as more than 40,000 years rather than NYT's 100,000).
The contribution of linguistics seemed to be confined to observing that the click languages shared many similarities and were therefore unlikely to have evolved independently. The dating of   this common ancestor language seemed to come from the geneticists, in as much as they estimated how long the different tribes had been seperate from one another, and therefore how old the presumed  common ancestral language must be.
Whether there's any more to this than a"just so" story I wouldn't  like to judge.
Cheers
Colin
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lagarvelho
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2003, 01:43:02 AM »

Jacques and Colin:

I may be wrong, but wasn't there a similar story a few months back?  I thought there was, so I didn't pay too much attention to this one.  And while I'm no linguist, I've been quite frimly told, by some linguists, that this kind of "tracing back" is impossible pre about 8,000 years ago.  At least with our present state of knowledge.  Do molecular genetic techniques help "resolve" this?  I don't know, but it may depend on whether population histories re the same as genetic histories or lineages, and I don't think they are.  ARe there any linguistically inclined people on this list that might like to take a stab at analyzing this?
Anne G
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Dale Hoogeveen
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2003, 10:24:08 AM »

Hi Anne,

I suspect the connection goes something like this.  Some of the most ancient DNA types have unique (clicking) language forms;  so the clicking must also be ancient.  Which doesn't logically follow of course.  The next step in that "line of reasoning" would be for someone to say that since the clicking is anciently connected to the oldest gracile DNA forms that robusts weren't able to click.  Which doesn't logically follow either.  The next step would be to claim that since Neanderthals were robust, they obviously couldn't click and so were language impaired and as a result could not be considered to have been ancestral to modern clicking capable humans.

It would be far more supportable to examine the isolation of those clickers who were cut off from any domestication including dogs and from metallurgy until only 1500-2000 years ago well after we have those things at least partially distributed or locally developed in every other part of the world.

It would be far better to examine both the "ancient" DNA and the unique language characters of these South and Southwest Africans in terms of isolation first and then age second.   The isolation is obvious; the ages claimed are far more derived and inappropriately ignore that isolation.

Dutch


Jacques and Colin:

I may be wrong, but wasn't there a similar story a few months back?  I thought there was, so I didn't pay too much attention to this one.  And while I'm no linguist, I've been quite frimly told, by some linguists, that this kind of "tracing back" is impossible pre about 8,000 years ago.  At least with our present state of knowledge.  Do molecular genetic techniques help "resolve" this?  I don't know, but it may depend on whether population histories re the same as genetic histories or lineages, and I don't think they are.  ARe there any linguistically inclined people on this list that might like to take a stab at analyzing this?
Anne G
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Peace
Dale Hoogeveen
John Goodrum
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2003, 02:06:32 AM »


The primary article by Knight et al. is available free from the following address after registering.  Some of it is a bit difficult to follow, but it's worth reading if the NY Times piece got your attention.

http://www.current-biology.com/home.isa  


JG
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Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2003, 09:50:51 PM »



The primary article by Knight et al. is available free from the following address after registering.  Some of it is a bit difficult to follow, but it's worth reading if the NY Times piece got your attention.

http://www.current-biology.com/home.isa  

JG



Thanks, but the C.B. registration form appears to be rather unfriendly -- to me anyway -- and systematically refuses to return my repeated calls.

Jacques Cinq-Mars
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John Goodrum
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2003, 11:31:46 PM »

Quote
Quote



Thanks, but the C.B. registration form appears to be rather unfriendly -- to me anyway -- and systematically refuses to return my repeated calls.




Sorry to hear that.  I just stuck in my favorite username and password and it welcomed me like an old friend, so apparently I had registered there sometime in the past and forgotten about it.  

It might be worth trying it with another browser (like I, ahem, have to do when I visit Palanth).   And if that doesn't work, I'm always willing to help out a friend in need.
(goodrumj@olympus.net)

JG
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lagarvelho
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2003, 02:03:36 AM »

John and Jacques:

It was rather unfriendly to me, too.  I finally registered, but not before I tried several times, and I ended up using i don't know what combination to get in.  Anyway, I got the articles, but it was a pain in you know what part of the anatomy.
Anne G
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Scott MacEachern
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2003, 10:29:26 AM »

There's an excellent (critical) commentary on the linguistic aspects of this by Larry Trask, on the ev-psych list for those who subscribe. The Web copy of Trask's comments is here.

It seemed to me to be another journalistic just-so story.

Scott
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Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2003, 11:02:48 AM »


There's an excellent (critical) commentary on the linguistic aspects of this by Larry Trask, on the ev-psych list for those who subscribe. The Web copy of Trask's comments is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionary-psychology/message/23910

It seemed to me to be another journalistic just-so story.

Scott


Yes, you are right. It should also be mentioned that Larry Trask's commentary is part of a lively discussion involving quite a number of people. Too bad exchanges of this sort rarely get started in this Forum. Especially since it is dedicated to a broad range of palaeoanthropological issues. And please, don't tell me that this is because our communication set up is not user friendly!

Jacques Cinq-Mars
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Dale Hoogeveen
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2003, 02:11:56 PM »



There's an excellent (critical) commentary on the linguistic aspects of this by Larry Trask, on the ev-psych list for those who subscribe. The Web copy of Trask's comments is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionary-psychology/message/23910

It seemed to me to be another journalistic just-so story.

Scott


Yes, you are right. It should also be mentioned that Larry Trask's commentary is part of a lively discussion involving quite a number of people. Too bad exchanges of this sort rarely get started in this Forum. Especially since it is dedicated to a broad range of palaeoanthropological issues. And please, don't tell me that this is because our communication set up is not user friendly!

Jacques Cinq-Mars


Hi Jacques, Scott,

FWIW most of the contents of the yahoogroup at the above URL are freely available without subscription including both all of its list postings and the group's entire file section and that is common not only in yahoogroups but in many other Email discussion forums. (just as postings can be read here without loggin on.)  

Such links can become valuable resources providing references and background across forums, as is being done above, including the ability of most of us to display and compare seperate documents in different browser windows.  So one could say that we could "add their distinctiveness to our own".  (Sorry I've been a Trekkie for decades.)

For that matter, they can also be easy sources of freely available uploads and so can easily endanger copyright protection of intellectual property.  Such behaviour could destroy the "eventual" magazine part of palanth.com.

I suspect that most discussion participants do not realize how public and unprotected their internet postings and uploads actually are, if one can judge by some of the comments one occasionally sees and some of the files that get uploaded in some places.  Or they might be a bit less freewheeling, themselves.

Dutch
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Dale Hoogeveen
John Goodrum
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2003, 01:20:26 PM »


There's an excellent (critical) commentary on the linguistic aspects of this by Larry Trask, on the ev-psych list for those who subscribe. The Web copy of Trask's comments is here.

It seemed to me to be another journalistic just-so story.

Scott



One of the co-authors of the Current Biology paper is Merritt Ruhlen, author of "The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue" (1994).  Here's Larry Trask's "glowing" review of the book at Amazon.com.  Enjoy!


Ruhlen’s fantasies, September 18, 2001
Reviewer: Robert L. Trask from Brighton United Kingdom

This is not a book about comparative linguistics. Instead, it is a book devoted to Ruhlen’s personal fantasies.
Comparative linguistics, like all linguistics, and indeed like all serious scholarly work, is done by applying rigorous and scrupulous methods to carefully obtained data. The right way of doing comparative linguistics was worked out only at the end of the 18th century, and it has been developed and refined ever since.

Before that time, people had no idea how to compare languages, and they worked wholly in the dark. Their favored “method” was nothing more than the assembly of miscellaneous resemblances among miscellaneous languages, in the hope that this might shed light on language origins. But it didn’t, and it doesn’t: miscellaneous resemblances are meaningless and worthless, as has been amply demonstrated countless times. See any decent textbook of historical linguistics.

But this Dark Age procedure is exactly what Ruhlen wants his readers to accept, believe in, and follow. Ruhlen shows no understanding of the numerous and serious obstacles to the comparison of languages, and no understanding of the formidable pitfalls that must be avoided if useful work is to be done.

In place of rigor, Ruhlen offers us only lists of miscellaneous resemblances, which, like the forlorn scholars of the past, he wants us to take seriously, and to use as the sole basis for spectacular conclusions.

Worse, Ruhlen wants his eager readers to believe that they too can do serious work in linguistics:
“Don’t believe the blinkered professionals when they tell you that good work requires years of training and experience, or that it requires a comprehensive knowledge of the languages you want to compare. Just trust me when I tell you that any idiot with a bilingual dictionary can do real linguistics, better even than the professionals.”

There is more, much more. The very first duty of a scholar is to get the data right, but Ruhlen can’t even do that. For example, of the 13 Basque items presented on page 65 (as “language B”), four are wrong, and two more are not even native Basque words, but are words borrowed from Latin or Spanish. And there are also some profound problems concerning the origins and earlier forms of several of the others, problems which Ruhlen ignores because he doesn’t even know about them: he’s just extracted his forms incomprehendingly from a bilingual dictionary. But Ruhlen doesn’t care about such humdrum tasks as getting the facts right: he merely wants to persuade readers of the spectacular success of his primitive and wrongheaded approach. So what if the data are wrong: it’s the Big Picture that’s important, right? Professional linguists, who are all too aware of the enormous difficulty of establishing links between any languages at all, have no time for this sort of nonsense.

This shabby book is made even shabbier by Ruhlen’s practice of making nasty remarks about those linguists who have quite properly criticized his work—which means just about every linguist who has ever commented on it at all. He even goes so far as to say nasty things about long-dead linguists of the past, like Meillet (on page 79), apparently on the ground that they too would have condemned his work if they had lived to see it.

You will learn nothing about doing comparative linguistics by reading this dreadful book. You will learn only how to join the massed ranks of the linguistic cranks. And we already have more than enough of those. There are thousands and thousands of cranks churning out useless and pathetic “comparisons” like Ruhlen’s every year. Ruhlen is more prominent than most, but he is no better.

R. L. Trask
Professor of Linguistics


JG
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Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2003, 04:11:07 PM »

Thanks for passing on this rather illuminating review. I always enjoy Larry Trask's posts on the EP list, and I must say that I will do all I can to having him on the PALANTH-Forum. His presence would certainly add stimulating colours!
Quote

One of the co-authors of the Current Biology paper is Merritt Ruhlen, author of "The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue" (1994).  Here's Larry Trask's "glowing" review of the book at Amazon.com.  Enjoy!

Ruhlen’s fantasies, September 18, 2001
Reviewer: Robert L. Trask from Brighton United Kingdom

This is not a book about comparative linguistics. Instead, it is a book devoted to Ruhlen’s personal fantasies.

<snip>

You will learn nothing about doing comparative linguistics by reading this dreadful book. You will learn only how to join the massed ranks of the linguistic cranks. And we already have more than enough of those. There are thousands and thousands of cranks churning out useless and pathetic “comparisons” like Ruhlen’s every year. Ruhlen is more prominent than most, but he is no better.

R. L. Trask
Professor of Linguistics

JG


Larry Trask’s position vis-à-vis Ruhlen’s type of approach can also be found in an exchange entitled “Debate and Discussion: Basque and Dene-Caucasic” published by:

MOTHER TONGUE
Journal of the Association for the Study of Language in Prehistory
Issue II, December 1996.


CLICK HERE

Jacques Cinq-Mars

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lagarvelho
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2003, 07:11:10 PM »

Jacques, John, Dale, and all:

Obviously I'm no linguistic expert, but I get the sinking feeling that Ruhlen's approach isn't well thought of in the linguistic community.  So why is this stuff being published to the "public" when it isn't good science?
Anne G
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Scott MacEachern
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2003, 02:36:06 PM »


Jacques, John, Dale, and all:

Obviously I'm no linguistic expert, but I get the sinking feeling that Ruhlen's approach isn't well thought of in the linguistic community.  So why is this stuff being published to the "public" when it isn't good science?
Anne G


Because a number of the geneticists -- and especially Cavalli-Sforza -- love it. For the sorts of historical reconstructions they're interested in, they need time-depths substantially beyond those recognized as useful for analysis by linguists, which puts them in the territory occupied by Ruhlen and other proponents of macro-phylum analysis. The fact that the vast majority of linguists don't believe this stuff doesn't appear to matter.

Trask's _Historical linguistics_ is an excellent over-view of more mainstream approaches to this.

Scott
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