Jebel Irhoud and Dali

[anthrostudies]

I'm not an anthropologist but I have an interest in modern human origins. And I'm interested in the similarity between Jebel Irhoud and Dali, from different continents. I have noticed this similarity, and I am convinced that there is a relationship between them. Does anyone have any comments to make about this?

[Daryl Habel]

I'm not an anthropologist but I have an interest in modern human origins. And I'm interested in the similarity between Jebel Irhoud and Dali, from different continents. I have noticed this similarity, and I am convinced that there is a relationship between them. Does anyone have any comments to make about this?

Dear anthrostudies,

I'm not an anthropologist either, but I have taken some time to read a little about Jebel Irhoud and Dali.  All I can say is they both have anatomical traits that are less archaic than their presumed ancestors, respectively.  It's been a while since I looked into the itemization of these more-modern-like traits, and it would be easier to comment on your apparent dilemna, if you could be a little more specific about the "similarity" you see in the two specimens.

Best,
Dar

[anthrostudies]

To anyone interested.

I expanded the matrix supplied with a Homo cepranensis paper on WinCLADA. Im only starting to use it, so I cant tell yet how to see which characters are distributed where on the matrix, only the exact relationship the dendrogram suggests.

However I get a result where Jebel Irhoud and Dali share a common ancestry, or sometimes, Krapina C comes out within this group depending on what other specimens are removed.

When I've compared the shapes of the skulls from the side, Jebel Irhoud and Dali do show similar tendencies I hadn't noticed. At least compared with Jebel Irhoud and Florisbad or Jebel Irhoud and BOU-VP-16/1. And much has been made of the supposed relatedness between Jebel Irhoud and these Africans.

Here are pictures of Dali and Jebel Irhoud.

For Jebel Irhoud CLICK HERE
For Dali CLICK HERE

[anthrostudies]

The additional specimens added to my matrix were Minatogawa 1, Saccopastore 1, La Chapelle, Shanidar 1, Predmost 3, Skhul 5, Cape Flats, Amud, Jebel Irhoud, Solo 6, Krapina C, Qafzeh 9, Cro-Magnon 1, Upper Cave 101, Combe Capelle, Cali, Sambungmacan 3, Lapa Vermelha 4 1, Liujiang, AbR-12, Elementeita C, BOU-VP016/1, Homa Shell Mound 4, Obercassel, Asselar, Chancelade, Grotte des Enfants, Grimaldi Boy and Erq-el-Ahmar.

My coding fror Lapa Vermelha 4 1 hasnt been checked and is incomplete. Obercassel also has incomplete coding, and Grimaldi Boy is not mature enough to be used reliably (I removed ZKD 9 for this reason).

[Daryl Habel]

To anyone interested.

I expanded the matrix supplied with a Homo cepranensis paper on WinCLADA. Im only starting to use it, so I cant tell yet how to see which characters are distributed where on the matrix, only the exact relationship the dendrogram suggests.

However I get a result where Jebel Irhoud and Dali share a common ancestry, or sometimes, Krapina C comes out within this group depending on what other specimens are removed.

When I've compared the shapes of the skulls from the side, Jebel Irhoud and Dali do show similar tendencies I hadn't noticed. At least compared with Jebel Irhoud and Florisbad or Jebel Irhoud and BOU-VP-16/1. And much has been made of the supposed relatedness between Jebel Irhoud and these Africans.

Here are pictures of Dali and Jebel Irhoud.

For Jebel Irhoud CLICK HERE
For Dali CLICK HERE

Thanks for clarifying the "similarity", but from the quote above as well as your subsequent post noting the additional  fossil data used in your analysis, it's clear that your investigation into the pecularities of Jebel Irhoud and Dali far outdistances any effort of mine.  As I mentioned before, it has been a while since I've read anything specific on Dali and Irhoud, so I've been doing a little review of my files, and did find two articles which supply some very basic information that some folks might be interested in.

I don't know about articles specifically devoted to Dali, but there is a fairly good basic description of the fossil that can be read, free to all and downloadable in pdf., in:

Brown, P. (2001). Chinese Middle Pleistocene hominids and modern human origins in East Asia. In: Barham, L. & Brown, K.R. (eds.), Human Roots - Africa and Asia in the Middle Pleistocene. Bristol: Western Academic & Specialist Publishers.  pp. 135-145.

available from Peter Brown's publications webpage, at:
CLICK HERE  

And there is another which contains a lot of information about Jebel Irhoud (including skull measurements),

Hublin, J.-J. (1992). Recent human evolution in northwestern Africa. Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences 337 (1280): 185-191.

This also is available, free to all and downloadable in pdf. from Jean-Jacques Hublin's publications webpage, at:CLICK HERE

Most of Hublin's publications are not available in pdf downloads, but a few, including this one, are.  But note the article, located within Hublin's category "Research papers (journals and refereed volumes)", is listed in chronological order of publication and the title is NOT hyperlinked, but is followed by "[pdf.]" which IS hyperlinked to the download.

I've some other stuff also, but not freely available for all to download, and I need to read through these papers better.  I'll get back later after doing so.  But it is certain that I'm not able to comment with the authority of a  _real_  physical anthropologist, which is what you really need.  Nevertheless, I'll try to come up with something that won't display to all my general ignorance of these things too much (I hope).

Dar

P.S. I took the liberty of shortening the url's you supplied leading to the images of Jebel Irhoud and Dali.  Thanks for those, and I hope you can excuse my change.
 

[anthrostudies]

Thank you for the Hublin article, it was very helpful. The Brown article is also interesting but I read that one before.

That help was very useful - more than you think it was.

Please do tell me if you read anything relevent, because I'm sure I will appreciate it.

[Daryl Habel]

I thought the Hublin paper was very good, also.  I have some additional relevant references and comment I can add to this, but it will take a couple of days to throw all my thoughts together and compose something intelligible.  Don't hold your breath, but as Arnold puts it...I'll be back.

Dar

[anthrostudies]

I also expanded the matrix by increasing the characters used in the matrix, so there are now 32 characters. These are 31. Projecting midface (0=present 1=absent) and 32. Occipital bunning (0=no 1=present).