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anthrostudies
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« on: August 17, 2004, 11:57:39 AM »

Can anyone help me please, with photographs of the Peers Cave skull, or the Solutre 5 or Le Placard 5 material?

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Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2004, 05:02:24 PM »

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Can anyone help me please, with photographs of the Peers Cave skull, or the Solutre 5 or Le Placard 5 material?

Regarding Peers Cave, I suggest you contact Mikey Brass who is a Forum member and presents on his own site ( HERE) a short overview of the history of research at Peers Cave. With luck, he will know about pertinent image source(s).

Good luck also with the other two.

Jacques Cinq-Mars
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anthrostudies
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2004, 08:07:06 PM »



Regarding Peers Cave, I suggest you contact Mikey Brass who is a Forum member and presents on his own site ( HEREa short overview of the history of research at Peers Cave. With luck, he will know about pertinent image source(s).

Good luck also with the other two.

Jacques Cinq-Mars


Thanks I mignt do that.

I think the only pictures of the Peers Cave skull I have seen, are taken at strange angles. Peers Cave is the modern skull with the most alveolar prognathism, from what I can tell, but has been linked to bushmen, who are a specialised type despite their early divergence.

And as for Solutrean material, theres no pictures at all which I can trace. Because the Solutreans are supposed to be very archaic, I was hoping to see how they looked. There is a similarity between the Aterian and the Solutrean, so some people suggested a link between them. In spite of the time gap, I was interested to see if their remains reflected this similarity.
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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 06:27:43 AM »



Thanks I mignt do that.

I think the only pictures of the Peers Cave skull I have seen, are taken at strange angles. Peers Cave is the modern skull with the most alveolar prognathism, from what I can tell, but has been linked to bushmen, who are a specialised type despite their early divergence.



I do not have any pictures of Peer's Cave. The information on my website came from a publication of Godwin's house, a copy of which is in the African Studies Library of the University of Cape Town. The booklet did have pictures in it. The best person to contact in this regards is probably Cedric Poggenpoel of UCT's archaeology dept. His e-mail address is available through the UCT site - http://www.uct.ac.za .
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
anthrostudies
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 09:47:47 AM »

Thanks.
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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 09:54:17 AM »


I do not have any pictures of Peer's Cave. The information on my website came from a publication of Godwin's house, a copy of which is in the African Studies Library of the University of Cape Town. The booklet did have pictures in it. The best person to contact in this regards is probably Cedric Poggenpoel of UCT's archaeology dept. His e-mail address is available through the UCT site - http://www.uct.ac.za .


The sentence should read: "...of Godwin's, a copy of which is kept in..."

I had done a presentation in what was then my 2nd year 1st semeter class, way back in 1997. How time has flown by !

(The text on my website is a very slightly revised version of my presentation)
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
anthrostudies
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 01:19:31 PM »

I had a look and I was interested in something else which you mentioned on your site.

http://www.antiquityofman.com/homo_interbreeding.html

It has a reference to the "Woodburn Park hair sample" having mtDNA outside the modern human variation. Can you help me on that? It's new to me.
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Daryl Habel
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2004, 12:32:49 AM »

I had a look and I was interested in something else which you mentioned on your site.

http://www.antiquityofman.com/homo_interbreeding.html

It has a reference to the "Woodburn Park hair sample" having mtDNA outside the modern human variation. Can you help me on that? It's new to me.


I'm curious about the Woodburn Park hair strand, also.   Old news (cut-and-pasted below, but it will fill you in).  I haven't heard anything new about Woodburn Park.  Personally, I think Dr. Orr has found the first evidence of Sasquatch.  The home page for the Woodburn Park mammoth site is:CLICK HERE
But it doesn't mention the tests on the hair.  Mikey????

Dar

Posted: July 26, 2000 - 12:00am EST

WOODBURN, Ore. (AP) - Under a small Woodburn city park may lie the answer to who are the earliest Oregonians yet discovered.

Scientists have found an ancient strand of hair in Woodburn's Front Street Park - a human hair that may have been left behind before modern American Indians settled in North America a few thousand years ago.

The hair, found in a core sample during a June 1999 dig, could be one of the oldest found in the Western United States, said Alison Stenger, director of the Institute for Archaeological Studies.

"We came out with a dirt clod and inside the dirt clod was a human hair 14 inches long," she said. "It was so old there was no pigment."

While scientists have yet to determine its age, the layer of soil it was in dates back 11,000 to 12,000 years.

The soil beneath the park is part of an ancient buried wetland, one of three being studied by Stenger and scientists from the University of Oregon and Oregon State University. The other sites are Mammoth Park, adjacent to Woodburn High School, and Legion Park, near Highway 214.

The hair raises the question of just who peopled North America first.

Some scientists are beginning to believe the first people may not have genetically resembled American Indians.

"I'm absolutely convinced that there were multiple populations here and the hair represents one of those populations," Stenger said. Those populations could have been here long before modern American Indians appeared, she said.

Given current theories that all humans migrated from elsewhere, the term "Native American" could be an oxymoron, said Cleone Hawkinson, a physical anthropologist with Friends of America's Past.

And the fact that a population lived in the New World once doesn't mean their descendants exist today. "The hardest thing for people to understand is how long ago this was. There was a high probability that groups would die out," she said.

Within weeks, scientists will know whether the hair is related to modern Native American gene types, said Lori Baker, doctoral student in anthropology who specializes in ancient DNA testing.

"There are five founding haplotypes among Native Americans. A haplotype is a type of DNA pattern," she said. "What I'm doing now is trying to determine if this hair has any of those (patterns)."

There a chance, however, the hair could have come from a lost civilization - off the DNA map. "It could be that we had other people in the Americas that weren't related to modern Native Americans at all," Baker said.

Because she has to essentially destroy the hair to extract its DNA, she has to be selective about how many - and which - DNA patterns she can test for. "What I'll do first is compare them to ones most likely - ancient Asian haplotypes," she said.

Scientists have long known Woodburn may hold treasures of the past. In the 1950s, a scientist by the name of E.J. Packard began to recognize the Mill Creek flood plain near Woodburn High School as a paleontological gold mine because of the buried network of ancient wetlands. The anaerobic bog has a neutral acidity level, which preserves otherwise perishable remains such as strands of human hair, Stenger said.

But the site remained untouched until 1987, when a utility trench uncovered scores of bones from animals that lived thousands of years ago - bones of sloth, mammoth, horse, bear, giant bison and dire wolf from thousands of years ago.

Scientists believe the Woodburn area may have among the best preserved ancient layers of soil in the Pacific Northwest.

********

Interview William Orr, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus in Geology, University of Oregon, and Director of the State Museum of Paleontology, Eugene, Oregon: "You can identify human hair, forensic criminologist types, can identify human hair from a single strand because of the granules and color and all that kind of stuff. You can distinguish human hair from all other hair just from a little piece of follicle. Strand of sixteen-inch-long, dark, human hair retrieved from the Woodburn, Oregon Ice Age archaeological site. DNA analyses of hair follicles found at the site have so far failed to find a match with any known human racial type living on earth today. Photograph © 2001 by Alison Stenger, Ph.D. We found several strands of human hair, long pieces a foot and a half long, black, long pieces of hair. And then if you can find the root of the hair that still has a follicle, you can do DNA on it. So researchers immediately sent the (Ice Age) hair off to a lab and they began to extract the DNA. Some of it was not so good, but a lot of it was well preserved in the oxygen-poor bogs of Woodburn. The geneticists found the hair didn't match any Asian hair DNA. It didn't match African, European. It didn't match anything. Dogma would be that Ice Age humans along the west coast of the United States would be from a Japanese population that is alleged to have come over the Bering Sea back twelve to thirteen thousand years ago. So right now we have DNA we can't track. We can't figure out what it's from. Apparently from a population we don't have today. They are gone. And it's only 11,000 or 12,000 years old. About that time period, there was a huge crisis in animals. The larger animals all disappeared and they disappeared in a wave. They disappeared first in British Columbia and then in Washington, Oregon, California and right on down. Some were still around until 10,000 years ago in Tierra del Fuego. So, it was like a wave of extinction at the rate of about 10 miles per year.
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Daryl Habel
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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2004, 10:08:15 AM »

I had a look and I was interested in something else which you mentioned on your site.

http://www.antiquityofman.com/homo_interbreeding.html

It has a reference to the "Woodburn Park hair sample" having mtDNA outside the modern human variation. Can you help me on that? It's new to me.



I'll get back to you on this. It was unprofessional of me to miss this bit of the person's message and I have asked him for a reference on it. If it is incorrect, I will erase it from my page.
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
Mikey Brass
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2004, 02:05:34 PM »



I'm curious about the Woodburn Park hair strand, also.   Old news (cut-and-pasted below, but it will fill you in).  I haven't heard anything new about Woodburn Park.  Personally, I think Dr. Orr has found the first evidence of Sasquatch.  The home page for the Woodburn Park mammoth site is:CLICK HERE
But it doesn't mention the tests on the hair.  Mikey????

Dar



I queried with the person concerned and received a reply, part of which is below. The information is ambiguous enough that I wiill be doing a slight alteration to the part of my website page concerned.

Quote
My source was various online newspaper articles, like
this one in the Guardian at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4525350-103419,00.html

There was a flurry of similar articles in various
papers, most of which are likely no longer available
online (I had a dickens of a time locating even the
Guardian article.... a wide range of links didn't
work, & it's own website search engine couldn't find
it!).

ALL of the articles made a point of saying that the
hair sample's mtDNA didn't match Native Americans, a
few of them ALSO admitted (not this Guardian article,
sorry) that the sample didn't match ANY living
peoples.  I'm pretty sure I copied off one or more of
them, but if so it's lost amidst a very scattered
collection of floppy disks.

To the best of my knowledge (as of a year ago, when I
last searched), the results had STILL not been
officially published.

(Similar claims had been made on hair from Pendejo
Cave.... but there was doubt there that it was even
human.)

My own suspicion is that the Woodburn hair mtDNA was
most likely highly degraded and/or subjected to
laboratory induced pseudo-mutations (as they're
finding that ancient DNA is prone to doing when
replicated).
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
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