'Bhimbetka paintings over 25,000 yrs old'

[mirror]

Regrettably no photos.


Sravani Sarkar
Bhopal, March 21,2005

CONTESTING THE claim of the Western scientific community that Indian rock
paintings are comparatively quite modern than those found in their part of
world, eminent city archaeologist Dr Narayan Vyas has come up with a
path-breaking research work that seeks to prove that Bhimbetka rock
paintings are as old as the oldest rock paintings known in the world - i.e around 25,000 years.

The post-doctoral research work titled 'A comparative study of rock
paintings of Raisen District, with special emphasis on Bhimbetka' has earned
Dr Narayan Vyas - presently superintending archaeologist with Chhattisgarh
circle of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) - the first D Lit degree on the subject of 'rock painting' in entire world.

The D Lit degree was recently awarded to Dr Vyas by the Barkatullah University.

The work was done under aegis of the History Department of the Hamidia College.

In his detailed study, Dr Vyas emphatically puts forth evidence that
suggests that some of the Bhimbetka paintings are as old as 25,000 years,
co-periodic with the oldest rock paintings of France, Italy, Spain, Siberia, parts of America and South Africa.

"Western scientists never accepted that Indian paintings could be that old.
They always put the age of Indian rock paintings at maximum 10-11,000 years.

However an in-depth study of the style and the superimposition patterns in
the paintings in Raisen district, mainly Bhimbetka complex proves that the
age of some of the paintings run as old as 20-25,000 years,'' Dr Vyas told the Hindustan Times.

Dr Vyas has submitted many photographs and line drawings of the paintings
from Bhimbetka and surrounding areas, comparing them with paintings from western countries.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_1289843,0015002100000000.htm

[Jacques Cinq-Mars]

Thanks for passing this on. Personally I have never had any qualms about a "greater than" antiquity for Indian rock art, especially if you think of its rich manifestations sitting smack in between the two earliest, well dated poles, i.e., Australia and Western Europe. The problem, however, is that -- from what little I have read in this article and on the web -- most advocates of an Upper Palaeolithic "phase" for some of these manifestations are relying on complex stylistic arguments which, as you know, are pretty iffy. Nothing like a few good representations of extinct fauna and/or direct or, at the very least, solid contextual chronometric dating.

Jacques Cinq-Mars

[rmacfarl]

G'day Jaques,

Re Bhimbetka: a quick Google found quite a few links to it. This one had some nice photos, for those interested to look:

http://www.travelcentralindia.com/bhimbet.html

Regards,

Ross Macfarlane

[rmacfarl]

And some even better examples of the art here:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2686/bhimbetka_index.htm

(P.S. Apologies for misspelling your name Jacques...)

Ross Macfarlane

[trehinp]

Another web site with an article and nice pictures :

"Prehistoric Rock Paintings of Bhimabetaka"
http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/rockpain/betaka.htm

If the 25 Kyears BP dates are confirmed, this style would definitely be a precursor to the European Neolithic art, with extremely narative forms of representation, including hunting scene with human actors.

Around that time, the very realistic Franco Cantabrian Palaeolithic rock art started at Chauvet Cave which was to last until the end of the late Magdalenian, circa 12 Kyears BP , was primarily composed of single animal representations, and rarely human figures.

It is only during the Mesolithic that paintings looking like those of Bhimabetaka start to show up.

This is extremely interesting...

Yours.

Paul Tréhin

[trehinp]

I've just gone back to the website I was indicating about two years ago.

I come back to it as the author has updated the content and provides new information. 

"Prehistoric Rock Paintings of Bhimabetaka"
http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/rockpain/betaka.htm

If the 25 Kyears BP dates are confirmed, this style would definitely be a precursor to the European Neolithic art, with extremely narative forms of representation, including hunting scene with human actors.

In the updated text, the author says about Bhimabetaka art: "It is believed that  these paintings are twenty thousand to fifty thousand years old."

As I stated in my 2005 post, the 25 Kyears BP dates (now 20 Kyears in the new website version) were very surprising, and if confirmed would have been quite a revelation if not a revolution in Rock Art history.

The "fifty thousand years old" date which has been added to the article, even after the correction by the author (Following my message to Dr Kamat, she changed the dates of the drawings:  the earlier text was mentionning "five hundred thousand years old." rock art, which I found most improbable... ) remains a very early date for representative art. Representative art came much later in time, the earliest being figurines and paintings in the Aurignacian period around 35 Kyears BP.

Dr Kamat mentionned the works of  V.S. Wakankar as references to back up these dates. I will explore the web to se if I can find more about these paintings as I am really intrigued by the styles...

In addition, Dr Kamat proposes a dateline for Indian Rock Art that I find most astonishing. Click here for more

Any other information on Bhimbetka paintings from PALANTH members will be appreciated.

Paul Trehin

[Daryl Habel]

I've just gone back to the website I was indicating about two years ago.

I come back to it as the author has updated the content and provides information that make me doubtful of its scientific background.
 

"Prehistoric Rock Paintings of Bhimabetaka"
http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/rockpain/betaka.htm

If the 25 Kyears BP dates are confirmed, this style would definitely be a precursor to the European Neolithic art, with extremely narative forms of representation, including hunting scene with human actors.

In the updated text, the author says about Bhimabetaka art: "It is believed that  these paintings are twenty thousand to five hundred thousand years old."

As I stated then, the 25 Kyears BP dates (now 20 Kyears in the new website version) were very surprising, and if confirmed would have been quite a revelation if not a revolution in Rock Art history.

However, the second date mentionned "five hundred thousand years old", in my opinion just ruins the value of the article. As far as I can tell, Homo Sapiens Sapiens only emerged on Earth around 150,000 years and so far the earliest art form, dated about 70 thousand years, were found in Blombos Cave South Africa. Representative art came much later, the earliest being figurines and paintings in the Aurignacian period.

If this estimate of 500K years was to be scientifically confirmed, that would mean that a pre Homo Sapiens Sapiens representative art was already there. I have sent a message to Dr Kamat asking him to back up his claims.

Any other information on Bhimbetka paintings from PALANTH members will be appreciated.

Paul Trehin

Paul,

I'm no authority on the Bhimbetka prehistoric art, but I  took a look at the link in the quote above, and I read it to say "twenty thousand to fifty thousand years old" (not" twenty thousand to five hundred thousand years old"  as you write yesterday).  In any case, the examples shown on Dr Kamat's page probably do only date to terminal Paleolithic times, certainly less than 50,000 years ago and probably closer to the estimated 20,000 years ago, if not later than that, even. 

I do think that wherever the estimate of 500,000 years BP comes from, it is not from these stick drawings on Kamat's webpage, but from Auditorium Cave at Bhimbetka.  There are numerous caves at Bhimbetka.  See this webpage for an article on Auditorium Cave, at Bhimbetka.

http://www.originsnet.org/bimb1gallery/index.htm

and specifically the jpg and description at:

http://www.originsnet.org/bimb1gallery/pages/o)%20bmbacwakptrg.htm

Later:  I see the link doesn't lead to where it is supposed, so all I can say is check through the jpg. thumbprints at the bottom of the origins.net gallery/index page and look for a photo of a cupule and meander

as well as the other thumbprints at the bottom of the originsnet. gallery/index page.

Robert Bednarik also has information of the Bhimbetka Auditorium Cave cupule and meander petroglyphs in various webpages he has authored.  In any case, the cupule and meander petroglyphs at Auditorium Cave were found beneath the modern surface adjacent to strata containing "Middle Acheulean" artifacts.  So far as I can tell, the dating estimate of 200,000-500,000 years BP was arrived at only from association and the "style" of the Acheulean artifacts, so the dating is only a rough guess.  The Middle Paleolithic in that part of India begins about 150,000 years ago, so Bednarik's estimate of  "an antiquity well in excess of 100,000 years is confirmed" (on the origins.net gallery webpage) seems reasonable.    I think Auditorium Cave is where your mysterious "five hundred thousand years" comes from.

In short, there are 754 shelters at Bhimbetka and  over 500 with rock paintings.  Bhimbetka is not one cave.

Dar

[trehinp]

I  took a look at the link in the quote above, and I read it to say "twenty thousand to fifty thousand years old" (not" twenty thousand to five hundred thousand years old"  as you write yesterday). 

Indeed Dr Kamat  edited her own page after I sent her a message stating that I was astonished by the  five hundred thousand years... She just corrected it this morning...

In any case, the examples shown on Dr Kamat's page probably do only date to terminal Paleolithic times, certainly less than 50,000 years ago and probably closer to the estimated 20,000 years ago, if not later than that, even. 

I completely agree on that point. I have written again to Dr Karmat to try to get more detailed information on these paintings and their estimated dates. However even is dated from the late upper palaeolithic, these drawings look more like the neolithic drawings in western Europe. This would be a very different evolution of the styles compared to the one we know so far.

Robert Bednarik also has information of the Bhimbetka Auditorium Cave cupule and meander petroglyphs in various webpages he has authored.  In any case, the cupule and meander petroglyphs at Auditorium Cave were found beneath the modern surface adjacent to strata containing "Middle Acheulean" artifacts.  So far as I can tell, the dating estimate of 200,000-500,000 years BP was arrived at only from association and the "style" of the Acheulean artifacts, so the dating is only a rough guess.  The Middle Paleolithic in that part of India begins about 150,000 years ago, so Bednarik's estimate of  "an antiquity well in excess of 100,000 years is confirmed" (on the origins.net gallery webpage) seems reasonable. 

 

That's a great info. I will check Robert Bednarik website. I may also send him an e-mail, we have already exchanged several times via the internet. This is of the utmost importance for my own research.

In short, there are 754 shelters at Bhimbetka and  over 500 with rock paintings.  Bhimbetka is not one cave.

Dar

Thanks a lot Dar, I had some idea of the extensiveness of  Bhimbetka but I didn't know it was su huge.

Yours sincerely.

Paul