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 on: June 09, 2009, 11:32:29 AM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Charlie Hatchett
Jacques, Paul, and whoever else that may be lurking,

Have you ever seen the engraved mastodon bone recovered by Juan Armenta in the Valsequillo Reservoir region (just south of Puebla, Mexico):

Permission granted by Virginia Steen-McIntyre and the Armenta family to reproduce all images.


 on: June 09, 2009, 03:40:16 AM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by trehinp
Thanks Charlie and Jacques,

This beautiful artefact, which so far seems to be genuine, needs a lot more scrutiny. While it may indeed be dated 12 to 13 KY BP, it could have been transported on a Florida beach either by a Palaeolithic tribe as a cult object or much later on by an early American "founding Fathers" a few centuries ago in his/her " home town treasures".

This is just to try to offer possible refutations but there are great probabilities that the engraving found on Vero Beach was indeed made by a local prehistoric artist. Actually, if it is indeed what the authors said it is, having Palaeolithic realistic Art in America would add more credibility to my hypothesis concerning early art creation. So the above comments are by no means trying to have a Euro centrist perception of Palaeolithic art.

If we take as a credible hypothesis that this Vero Beach engraving was produced by American Homo Sapiens Sapiens artist, this discovery has at least two consequences on our knowledge of Palaeolithic in America and in the world.

1/ It provides new information about the Palaeolithic occupation of the American continent by homo sapiens sapiens. I won't comment on that part as this is a domain that I don't know anything about...

2/ It shows that a form of very realistic art also appeared in North America during the Palaeolithic period, just as in the Franco Cantabrian area, in Southern Italy, in Egypt (Qurta) and in some other African places.

I find this American engraving truly remarkable. The etching technique requires a tremendous control of the hand as well as a perfect planning of the series of groves to be made. The attitude of the mammoth/mastodon is perfectly natural, demonstrating a great sense of observation.

This apparition of "realistic" art at about the same period in multiple places in the World, using very similar styles, poses several questions about this art in itself. Why would artists who had no means of communication use similar styles and subjects? The other question is why after having had such sophisticated art techniques, homo sapiens sapiens art evolved to a much more schematic representation style during the Neolithic period?

I think that this Vero Beach discovery, if it is really confirmed as originating from a local artist, will create as much turmoil in the origins of American Palaeolithic occupation as in the domain of Palaeolithic art spreading in the world.   



 on: June 08, 2009, 02:40:06 PM 
Started by Jacques Cinq-Mars - Last post by Jacques Cinq-Mars
This topic has been moved to Parietal & Mobiliary Art..

 on: June 08, 2009, 12:12:25 PM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Charlie Hatchett
Ahhhh, yes. That is a more approriate category.

Should you go ahead and move this thread there?


 on: June 07, 2009, 09:56:12 PM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Jacques Cinq-Mars
You're welcome.

By the way, I would like to remind all, that future contributions dealing with prehistoric art issues (such as the present one) should be directed at the "Parietal & Mobiliary Art" board.



 on: June 07, 2009, 05:16:14 PM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Charlie Hatchett
Thanks Jacques.

The link you provided has bigger images.


 on: June 06, 2009, 10:59:44 PM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Jacques Cinq-Mars
Charlie & al.,

Here is a somewhat insignificant addition to the "Vero Beach mammoth carving" story. By the way, the object in question should be properly called an "engraving" and compared to similar specimens from Europe. I guess we'll all have to wait for more than just media inflated speculations and that the partisans o of a "Solutrean Solution" will not get too excited by this story.


 on: June 04, 2009, 03:19:18 PM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Charlie Hatchett
In what a top Florida anthropologist is calling “the oldest, most spectacular and rare work of art in the Americas,” an amateur Vero Beach fossil hunter has found an ancient bone etched with a clear image of a walking mammoth or mastodon.

 on: May 29, 2009, 03:38:34 PM 
Started by Charlie Hatchett - Last post by Charlie Hatchett
Dear Charlie,

Thanks for the reference to this recent VanLandingham paper. Together with the earlier ones, the Valsequillo case gets increasingly intriguing. I wonder what Waters thinks about all this.

By the way, do you know VanLandingham's email address. I would like to ask him a few questions, both general and specific.


You're welcome, Jacques.

Last I heard Waters thought there might be a younger inset within the older strata. However, AFAIK, he hasn't offered up any firm evidence of it yet. Sam's work certainly challenges the inset hypothesis.

Sam's email address is:

By the way, will you email me?

My computer crashed several weeks ago and I lost your email address.



 on: May 29, 2009, 01:46:28 AM 
Started by aggsbach - Last post by aggsbach
In addition a publication about the Pavlov VI site (not a palimpest but a sigle activity unit consisting of a roasting pit at the centre of an area 5m across). Although the main task was the processing of two mammoths, there were numerous other wild animals in the assemblage. The occupants used flint knives, made bone tools and modelled in baked clay – on which they left their fingerprints, along with imprints of reindeer hair and textiles will be published by J Swoboda in the forthcoming Aniquity- joural.

And for people who are interested in the renewed excations in Krems (infant burials from the pavlovian) a paper ( in german) is now available focusing on raw material procurment of the site and also on  the sites history in the context of the eastern gravettien:


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