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Author Topic: On Woolly Mammoth extinction  (Read 10662 times)
Jacques Cinq-Mars
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« on: June 10, 2007, 08:50:24 PM »

In contrast to the recent and sensationalistic cosmic/catastropic hype (see HERE), here is an article that presents a coherent description of some of the complex processes that are most likely to have led to the demise (via extinctions and/or extirpations) of the Late Pleistocene northern hemisphere megafauna., i.e., M. primigenious and others.

At this time, the only important criticism/correction I dare come up with concerns the authors’ benign neglect vis-à-vis the need to factor in “humans” in their model or equation. As alluded to in the Abstract (see below, in Red) and briefly mentioned in the article, the authors seem to suggest that this human “factor” could have only played a (presumably) minor or insignificant role in the extinction process, since it appeared on the scene only at the end of the LGM. However, the combined evidence from the Siberian Yana site (search the Forum for "Yana" for a few pertinent references) and that obtained from our Northern Yukon research (see HERE for a summary) show, on the contrary that human groups were indeed roaming around and exploiting some the faunal resources of these northern regions as early as 40,000 years ago. Whether or not such a presence had any kind of influence on the slow extinction process discussed in the paper remains to be fully evaluated. As for the impact of the “comet” and my “spherules”, we should really wait for more than just press releases.

Barnes et al. 2007 Genetic Structure and Extinction of the Woolly Mammoth, Mammuthus primigenius. Current Biology 17:1-4.


The interval since circa 50 Ka has been a period of significant species extinctions among the large mammal fauna. However, the relative roles of an increasing human presence and a synchronous series of complex environmental changes in these extinctions have yet to be fully resolved [1]. Recent analyses of fossil material from Beringia have clarified our understanding of the spatiotemporal pattern of Late Pleistocene extinctions, identifying periods of population turnover well before the last glacial maximum (LGM: circa 21 Ka) or subsequent human expansion [2], [3] and [4]. To examine the role of pre-LGM population changes in shaping the genetic structure of an extinct species, we analyzed the mitochondrial DNA of woolly mammoths in western Beringia and across its range. We identify genetic signatures of a range expansion of mammoths, from eastern to western Beringia, after the last interglacial (circa 125 Ka), and then an extended period during which demographic inference indicates no population-size increase. The most marked change in diversity at this time is the loss of one of two major mitochondrial lineages.

Click HERE for access to the full text. And if you cannot afford this Elsevier product, you can always ask around.

E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2007, 02:33:27 PM »

Hi Jacques -

I'm new to using this kind of forum, and its interface, so please bear with me here...

It would seem to me that the proposed 31,000 BCE iron impact evidenced by the peppered mammoth tusks may mark the break between Iroquoian and Algonquin peoples' migrations into the Americas.

As far as the 10,900 BCE comet impact event, many of the peoples remembered it, and I hope to share some of their traditions with you here over the next few days. I included some of them in my book "Man and Impact in the Americas", though at that time (2005) I misdated them to the end paleo at 8,350 BCE, instead of the now known 10,900 BCE.

Given modern elephants food requirements, most mammoth and mastodon must have starved to death within a few weeks. It seems that there may have been a few survivors, and if that part of my memory  remains from my stroke, I seem to recall that they were well evidenced. But most would have died.

I also don't know if I am right in this, but from what I have seen so far only the Fort Payne and one other quarry on the Tennessee-Kentucky border remained in use in eastern North America, so human die off must have been around 90%.

For me, the end of use of many quarries at 8,350 BCE most likely was again caused by comet or asteroid impact, simply because nothing else can account for such a sudden and massive change in population. Certainly not the introduction of maritime technologies (Dalton archaic maritime white serated edge points), which follow later.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2007, 03:49:53 PM »

An account of the Holocene start impacts from David Cusick's Sketches of the Ancient History of  the Six Nations:

"It came to pass that the Good Mind, as he traveled from place to place, after a while went along the shore of the lake (Lake Ontario). There, not far away, he saw the Bad Mind making for himself a bridge of ice across the lake, a bridge which already extended far out on the water. 

Thereupon the Good Mind went to the place where the Bad Mind was working, and when he arrived there, he said: "Tawi'skaron, what is this that you are doing for yourself?"  The Bad Mind replied, saying: "I am making a pathway for myself." And then, pointing in the direction toward which he was building the bridge, he added: "In that direction there is a land where dwell great animals of fierce dispositions. As soon as I complete my pathway to that other land, thereafter they will habitually come over. Along this pathway they will be in the habit of coming across the lake to eat the flesh of human beings who are about to dwell on the earth."

So then the Good Mind said to the Bad Mind: "You should stop the work which you are doing. Surely the intention of your mind is not good." The Bad Mind replied, saying: "I will not cease from what I am doing, for, of course, it is good that these great animals shall be in the habit of coming here to eat the flesh of human beings who will dwell here."

So of course the Bad Mind did not obey and cease from building the bridge for himself, and thereupon the Good Mind turned back and reached dry land. Now along the shore of the sea grew shrubs, and he saw a bird sitting on a limb of one. The bird belonged to the class of birds which we call the bluebirds. And the Good Mind then said to this Bluebird: "You shall kill a cricket. You shall remove one hind leg from it, and you shall hold it in your mouth, and you shall go there to the very place where the Bad Mind is working. You shall land very near to the place where he is working, and you shall cry out." 

"And the Bluebird replied, saying, "Yo''.  Thereupon the Bluebird truly did seek for a cricket, and after a while it found one, and it killed it, too. Then it pulled out one of the cricket's hind legs and put it into its mouth to hold, and then it flew, winging its way to the place where the Bad Mind was at work making his ice bridge.

There it landed, near to him at his task. And of course it then shouted, "Kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe'." At which the Bad Mind raised up his head and looked, and he saw the bluebird sitting there. He believed from what he saw that the bluebird held in its mouth the thigh of a man, and also that its mouth was wholly covered with blood.

It was then that the Bad Mind sprang up at once and fled. As fast as he ran the bridge of ice which he was making dissipated."

[This Bluebird with its mouth covered with blood, whose appearance caused the ice to melt appears to have been the comet whose impact has now been well evidenced by Kenneth et al. at 10,900 BCE.]

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 08:58:18 PM »

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


Equipped with a knowledge of the thunders and thunderbirds, and their enemies the snakes, we can now begin to understand some of the Native American accounts of the Holocene Start impacts. The following account has been adapted to modern usage from the one preserved in the Walum Olum, the ancient history of the Lenape people.

1. Long ago there was a Mighty Snake [comet], and beings evil to men.
2. This Mighty Snake [comet] hated those who were there,
(and) he greatly disquieted those whom he hated.
3. He harmed all things, he injured all things,
and all were not in peace.
4. Driven from their homes, the men fought with this murderer.
5. The Mighty Snake [comet] firmly resolved to harm the men.
6. The Mighty Snake [comet] brought three persons [fragments?],
he brought a monster [impact],
he brought rushing water [an impact mega-tsunami or flood from melt].
7. Between the hills the water rushed and rushed,
dashing through and through, destroying much.
8. Nanabush, the Strong White One, Grandfather of beings,
Grandfather of men, was on Turtle Island.

While "Turtle Island" has certain allegorical aspects , it is strange to see the turtle play such an essential role in Lenape legend. Turtles are reptiles, and for the most part are unable to generate internal heat to warm their bodies, which limits their range to temperate climates; there are and were none of these in the far north of the Lenape people's original homeland. The only possible exception here may have been sea turtles, which thrive in warm water:  perhaps the Japanese Current provided warm water to the west coast of Canada, and  "Turtle Island" refers to west coastal Canada before the end of the last Ice Age.

9. There he was walking and creating:
and as he passed by,
he created the turtle [skin boats?].
10. Beings and men all went forth,
they walked in the floods and shallow waters,
down stream there in the turtle [skin boats?].
11. There were many monster fishes, which ate some of them.
12. The Great Mind's daughter came,
and helped with her canoe [wooden boat]:
she helped all, as they came and came.
13. Thus Nanabush, Nanabush, the Grandfather of all,
the Grandfather of beings, the Grandfather of men,
became the Grandfather of the turtle [skin boats?].
14. The men were then together on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
like turtles.
15. Frightened on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
they prayed that what was spoiled should be restored.
16. The water ran off, the earth dried, the lakes were at rest,
all was silent, and the Mighty Snake [comet] departed.


Whether these impacts were the cause of the end of the Ice Age or just coincidental to it is a hotly debated topic. Whatever the cause, the climate did begin to change.

Part III
1. After the rushing waters [had finished],
 the Lenape of the [Sea] Turtle were close together,
living together there in hollow houses..
2. It froze where they lived, it snowed where they lived,
it stormed where they lived, it was cold where they lived.
3. At this northern place they spoke favorably
of mild, cool [lands], with many deer and buffaloes.
4. As they journeyed, some being strong, and others rich,
they separated into house-builders and hunters;
5. The strongest, the most united, the purest, were the hunters.
6. The hunters showed themselves at the north, at the east,
at the south, at the west.


7. In that ancient country, in that northern country,
in that [Sea] Turtle Country,
the best of the Lenape were the men of the Turtle Clan.

Perhaps the Turtle Clan were the boat builders.

"8. All the cabin fires of that land were disquieted,
and all said to their priest, "Let us go."
9. They went forth to the Snake [Missasauga] Land to the east,
going away earnestly grieving."

Snakes, like turtles, are also reptiles, and for the most part are also unable to generate internal heat to warm their bodies.  This also limits their range to temperate climates, and there are and were none of these in the far north. The northernmost range of snakes, and in particular of the poisonous Missasauga rattlesnake, would appear to be along the Saint Lawrence at its junction with Lake Erie.

"10. Split asunder, weak, trembling, their land burned,
they went, torn and broken, to the Snake [Missasauga] Land."


The following passage has been adapted to modern usage from an account given by Tuscaroran Chief Elias Johnson.

A Great Horned Serpent also next appeared on Lake Ontario who, by means of his poisonous breath, caused disease, and caused the death of many.  [climate collapse by dust veil?]

At length the old women congregated, with one accord, and prayed to the Great Spirit that he would send their grandfather, the Thunder, who would get to their relief in this, their sore time of trouble, while at the same time burning tobacco as burned offerings. And so finally the monster was compelled to retire in the deeps of the lake by thunderbolts.

Before this calamity was forgotten another happened. A blazing star fell into their fort, situated on the banks of the St. Lawrence, and destroyed the people. Such a phenomenon caused a great panic and consternation and dread, which they regarded as ominous of their entire destruction. Not long after this prediction of the blazing star it was verified.

These tribes, who were held together by feeble ties, fell into dispute and wars among themselves, which were pursued through a long period, until they had utterly destroyed each other, and so reduced their numbers that the lands were again overrun with wild beasts.

At this period there were six families who took refuge in a large cave in a mountain, where they dwelled for a long time. The men would come out occasionally to hunt for food. This great cave was situated at or near the falls of the Oswego River. 

The Holder of the Heavens then came and extricated these six families from the subterraneous bowels and confines of the mountain. The people always looked to this divine messenger, who had power to assume various shapes as emergency demanded, as the friend and patron of their nation.

This company were a particular body, which called themselves of One Household. Of these there were six families, and they entered into an agreement to preserve the chain of alliance which should not be extinguished under any circumstance.


I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. This comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled "Man and Impact in the Americas", and so this tradition was not included in my book.


The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the Tuscorora, and David Cusick's version of it from his "Sketched of the Ancient Histoy of the Six Nstions, is given complete in my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas". 

This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawneee can be ruled out.

The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet.


One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind - Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Mind (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Spirit). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side.

Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki).

Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do,
then one of them went to the East, the other to the West,
One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East).

"Let us go (to the Center)" the Bad Mind said to the Good Mind (Spirit),
"There we will look at what each of us has created.

"Too much and too good have you created everything", the Bad Mind said.
"you have given them too much - you have created too much good."

For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy.

[Dougherty(?) elucidated this as "When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, "You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy."]

Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind.
"Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that."

[Dougherty(?) told this as "To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, "You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.]

Now then they were returning back to where they started.
Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, "What are you afraid of?"
"Of horns", he [the Good Mind] answered.
"And what are you afraid of?", he [the Good Mind] asked.
"Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me.
[I think it most likely that these "flags" were some kind of poison used in hunting.]
Then the Bad Mind said "You first"
"Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable.", said the Good Mind.
Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed.

Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end, and then they returned to the Center.

Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him.
Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction.
The Good Mind picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these horns.

Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind] killed him [the Bad Mind].

[THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic or may preserve some memory of sequence.]

Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Mind up.

Then while the Bad Mind's heart was in the fire, it burst out, to the South.
The Good Mind went and grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire to the East, and 
The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire to the North, and 
The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire to the West, and 
The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again,
this time bursting. It burst under the ground.

"That's what I want to do with him", and then the Good Mind stamped on top of the ground.
He jumped up and down on where the Bad Mind's heart had finally burst.

Then the Good Mind thought of going home.
When he came there close to where they lived [Kokumthena (Grandmother, the Creator), the Good Mind, and the Bad Mind], and then he heard somebody at where they stayed.

He stopped a little while, and then started to go to the place again.
There he met Grandmother [Kokumthena, the Creator], and she told him
"You [the Good Mind] have been naughty", she said.
"You have BURNT THE SKIN OFF OF HIM [the Bad Mind]."


Then the Good Mind felt bad, and he started to go about feeling very bad.
Then he went to the Buffalo Lick, and there he sat down.

[After this the Good Mind created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick.
This Buffalo Lick may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of the modern city of Cincinatti, Ohio, as the active flint quarries show this area to have been occupied by the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.]
Cusick added: "It is said in an account which I believe to be fiction that these beings had the most knowledge of good and evil. It is also said that the beings became civilized people, and that they made their residence in the south part of the Great Island.  It is said that afterwards they were destroyed by barbarous nations, and their fortifications remain ruined unto this day."

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Then (both) then (one) started to the center just there
they started off subject God (of that island)
pié-u. Táhéliki gepiawatsi hiné negutí wisa
came (sg.) to the center when they came to then one they
piéwa, D. ye-, D.
wakutápawa wa’hsiláwiwa-ts hiné negutí
want to know what they are going to do then one of them
má-edsh nhä’-u yepaksimû’k(i). Na negûti
(east) around there, by a turn he went to the west one of them
or, mawiedshi nhäwa (e-prefix is right) (hiná)
máwiedsh(i) héwa wetákutháki. Wähi~ hutelálî
by turning he went east, lit., sunrise let us go (God speaks) told so
the way the sun comes up (wéhi)
hi~’nna wissîmanet(u); hinä’ ke’hwása tamátípä yéssi
(to) him Good Spirit there we look at each other what
(each other’s works) (future tense ?)
metélatamak8é. (H)uthámi kuéssi kimetéleta tcháki
we have created too (much) (too) good you created everything
wiéhi kwéssi meteletamo-a-k (h)utámi wéssi meteletamami,
you too well you have created too well good you created
(benefiting them) (animate) memeteletamami, D.
huthámi yessúessi meteletamáni huthámi wehí mélawatithigi
yessi wéssi they will be too lazy
everything was too well created, so that people would be altogether too lazy
wásha metelémosutski (or metelemátski-not).
(going to) you want to create
those to be
after thing created there
(H)uthámi isi matchi meteletamáni motchige- máki manetû’gi, motchige
(too, so) badly you created even large snakes even
withególi wietha [mótchige wiétha wenthególi]. Motchigá
would kill somebody, even some people would kill even
winthególi, -kóli people
likaî’si matá kweshî meteléta. Wene
lekaísi-further on not you well you have created when,
haliká-ishi-beyond that for ki-wéshi, ku-eshi now then
petéki netássi piéki(’ wétchep (te)wádshi. Hiné hunatótawáli
back there they were coming whence they started Then asked him (the devil)
wédshi wepthéwadshi
hina weshi mani~’to, “nihwé ki~’kuta,” hoteláli, “wewilaki,” hutékoli;
this Good Spirit what are you afraid of said he, of horns he told him,
nehiwé told him answered
hiné makwe kíla kik8tá? hutególi “hapkwagi mutchigé
then what you are afraid of he told, the flagweeds (595) even
makwá said hapkwakí
nilé’hkwamo kitewian”, hiné hutególi, “Kila nhitá”
it will strangle me when you strike me, then he said you firstly
nilekwamó when you hit me with it
hutególi. “Hinä mata,” huteláli, “Kilá nhita,” huteláli; “híni,” huteláli
he said then not first in turn well said
mayetéletaka hiné memékwi, weta kuthagî’ sikwákwi hiné
the God Creator then (he) did run towards sunrise, east in that direction and
he ran
(devil) also (God) ran
humawinalekóli 596
Metáthene kiteníthene hakwapi-’k(i). Mothetáwi
Ten times (piled) twelve times piles, piled upon another many times, all the time,
(or-theniswi) níla ntakwató-I pile continually
(the hápkwa is meant here)
hapkitahokáli nihika piéki yekwakwapiwa-tch(i). No-tchi
he was stiking (the devil) (both) come until the pile of flags from then,
(God object) (to the twelfth pile came to an end 596 there
of flags and return
from there)
kiwéki nihika piéki tahelikî’wiki nahika piéki, hiné
they turned back, arrived there to, into the center came (there) back there
they turn back nahika
huteláli hinä’ meme’kwi yepaksimúki waye-dshi sikwákwi
he told, said then he ran (the devil) to the west that way running in that
hiá miálithi~’na, hiné humawinaláli, hiná metathené
this here devil, ruiner then he ran (Creator) then ten times
or yama after(the devil)
kitenisené halehakwapiki wiwílaki. Negoténwi náwa-dshthánahi
twelve times in the direction, (his) horns he grabbed as he picked up
(we would say, piled up the piles he was running he picked up the
twelve piles) were lying horns on his way
nihi wíwilakî’ hinä hupkitähwáli miálethináli shikunalî’
these horns then he hit, struck the devil stone, the rock
níki, níhi wiwilhî, D.
hupitenáli hiná mîálithî’na ye-shi hu pkitehothátchi
he put on himself then the Destroyer from there (not, D.) 313 he struck him
(as a dress) pg. 312 is wédshi he hit him, D.
nihî’ wiwilakî’ pálohi hupkwét’hamowa-li hupiteni nílitch,
with these horns until he tore to pieces,one his garments his own
wiwilhî’, D. piece after another, hupítenika nilitchi
with the rock
(knocked a piece off, D.)
pálohi huntháli, hinä pkalenámûa wisatchagatethowali, hinä
until he killed him then he built a fire then wanted to burn him up then
pkalénamwa,D. –thuali, D.
yepkalégi- pokî’teli ela-’kwegi hutéhi, lawakwégi híste
while it was burst in the south (his) heart to the south he (God) went
in the fire his’the
(ná-ale) messénna petegî’ hutpagî’ta nokí pokîte
he grabbed it caught it 597 back threw it then again it burst in
hunáwalwi 484 (into the fire) the fire 597
wetagothakî’ hî’s’the (na-le) (hu)messénna, petegî’ hutpagi~tá
to the East (it) went he grabbed it caught it back again threw it
hunáwalwí (into the fire)
nokî’ pokî’te peponkî’gi hís’the hunáwalwi messénna
again it burst in to the north (it) went he grabbed it he caught it 484
the fire to go after in
pursuit, D.
pétegutpagî’ta nóki pokîte hepaksimoki his’the hunáwalûi
he threw it back then again it burst it (went) west west grabbed
into the fire ye-
for: petégi hutpagíta
messénna pétegi utpagî’ta nokí pukî’te la-’maki sipokite
and caught it back he threw it again bursting under the ground it burst,
went, 597
hini yelelemaki, hiné hutákska h8skítchi nisi lemát’the
that’s what I want to then he stamped, on the top he jumped
do with him kicked
tapokitégi hinutéhe.
where it had burst that heart
hini hutelú (hutehí)
Hiné wépthe nepagitchí shitéhe, nahíka
Then (God) started off he thought of going home when
malakwahí piéwa tahapiwa-’dsh(i) hiné huténotawáli
he came there close where they lived, stayed and then he heard
(God, the devil, and Kuhkumthena)
taha piwa-dsh wietháli; nakíka (hutchihí-not) noki
where they stay somebody he stopped pelutchihî then again
a little while
nissi wepthe, hiné nakskawáli kumthwáli hinä’
to go he started there he met their grandmother and
towards the place, nissi
wenatethita hotególi pamskewakitchétwa hine matchilépwa
“mischievous” she told, “you burnt the skin off him” then he feels sorry,
(called) him pamskiwakitchétwa bad
he felt sorry
[omission, 165] hiné matchilepwa-’dshi wépthe tchipepa-mthe hiné
and whole feeling sorry he started going about then
nahíka piéwa mámuleka niki nidassí mässa-ki, hiné
because there to a (buffalo) lick there he sat down sat down
(on that lick) mässaké
humamé hashiski dashí mamulekániki, dashí wanî’tstu hashíshki
D. he took the dirt from that (buffalo) lick there he was playing with dirt,
nítashi nitassi earth
dashí hush’háli lenawéli pálohi dashi nipwi hiná lenáwe.
there he formed a person tell there stood up that person (of dirt)
nidashi, D.
Pálo noki hush’háli kutagáli huwé nî’swi nidáshi nipawíki,
Then again he formed another one now two there are there standing
(pálohi, D.)
huwe-’ pathékwi hinä ma-’shi we-’pthe petégilápi
then he got up then a little ways he started back he looked
(sitting, before) níla ntelápi-I look (back)
wilawa pathekwígi
and stopped (to see how they were looking)
Hiniäshi tahétchi, hine- hinishitéhe hinäwa-dshi
Thus (God) thinks then he thinks, then when
he thought yenewa-’dshi-D. when he saw
nipawíki, hinä’ wapákie kemwápawelépwa; huteláhi,
they stood up (tomorrow) you I come to see again he said
the next day after
weápaki homawapa máhi, hunä’wáhi naska nipawíki,
one year, he went to see them (then) he saw them still they stood there
archaic for yáska, D.
hinä humemékinelemáhi.
[he thinks about them] see 316
Hinä hineshitehédshi wadshî’ metelemádshi
Then what he thinks which was to create, of creating them
the way he thought the mode (the first man and woman)
(see pg. 638! rewritten)
washínákudshi hinä ma-’zhashákitchéthe; hiné
so that he could see them then God stood back, he backed up, so
so that then they could see him moved back
hiné hinieshi náukwatchi hiné hiniéshi tehédshi nahiwe-
so in this manner they saw (God) then he what he thinks what
(-kutchi)better: thus he thought what way
they saw him
washimama-dshiki shitéhe.
how could not stir, move thinking
can they stir or move thought (he)
“Nihiwe- ko-’dshi waneleta wásha metélematski?”
why, what (do you not know) don’t you know those you will create?
nehiwe for nila niwanéleta- to have created
I don’t know
hini yékutchi hiná speméki, “hinî’ kitéhi kepwä’na
somebody told him that one above (a piece) of your heart the piece you
pick off
maletchíhi ne-gepagiga-utu wílek. Hiné kemíla kitebapíwe
a little bit (and) drop it on their heads Then you give him your eye-sight
(the blood)
kemila kitepesäwä; hiné wépthe “nikevanakíki
you give him your hearing then (God) started off day after tomorrow
ne’piá,” hutekwáli, “ni-zhikató.” Híni nazhikáki hinepiä’wa.
(then) I come he told (them) in two years then two years he did come
back (coming) hine (after the end of)
“há kiska kébipwa,” hutékwáli, yepiálitchi sápkahi huteláli
you tired of sitting down he told them when (God) came certainly, said
(this is said to the clay-figures) to them that’s so
há kiska képipwa
hína hiléni híwa makwagíla huteláli nili kwéli háshapkáhi
that man he said how are you said he that woman (she) said yes
(to the woman (tired of standing) is it so
clay figure)
niskaképi hutekóle. Hiná huteláhi hiná mayetéletaka
I am tired she replied then (he) told them the or that Creator, God
sitting down hine
Kepi-sitting (obsolete)
“Kiskaképi?” wateláhi. Hína huteláhi kehatakébipwa
are you tired (God) asked them Then he told them move your seat (and)
sitting down 319 hutelahi
taskanónthiki kela matákebipwa. Hiná (h)utegewáli: “Nishikonakíkwe
to a soft place sit down in (that soft place) Then he told them day after tomorrow
where it is soft you can sit down
nepiá,” hutewáli, “hiné nepiétu wamtheletamékwe.
I shall come he replied and I bring(it) what they get the use, benefit of
Wa- for weh (well) mth- (let us go)
Nidsheniná hiniáska yeshinágothitchî, téki kihutapinamawáwa
Brother looking like me, looking like him do not receive (don’t take )
Favoring from him
hini yàska
hine pietû’te téki kihutápanamawawa pietû’te hinî’ wiyehe.
when he brings it not do accept from him when he that thing,wièhe
anything he offers to you (imperative suffix) brings it wiehî-
(apple, medicine, etc.) something
Hine nepie-’tû’ wahímthéletamékwe.” hutekwáli, hiné yepiádshi
Then I am going to will benefit you he told them when he would come
bring it what then back
when he came
nä’-aka hunä’me, haíhá! Pápiêdshi
(he) already had seen it I am sorry he was found
neyeká seen it (exclamation) he has (or already?)
he had (already)
nematchelotákwa ndshéninali; kaleyúma kipietolepwa wamtheletamä’kwa(,
destroyed my brother this one here I brought you for you to get the
to ruin benfit of, use of
wa for wahí
hinä’ malateníke: haléyuma kipietúlepwa( hiná wessí wakanagíthî
then reached over here it is I have brought you then a good white
on his body this hine
he felt around
mshimî’na abuwanoki(-u) yuma tchepí’hki kipietúlepwa payä’kwa
apple then again this here medicine I brought you although
and again
nitchénina netamhe’kwa, hina
my brother he beat me then
surpassed by misleading the two people he had created
hutekwáli: nishikwuna ki-kwe nepiá hutekwáli, nepiálitchi
he replied in two (years) days I am coming said to them when I come
said to them back
na-zhikwunakíke yepiálitchi hutelélemekwáli nehiwe-
in two years when he came God thinks about them how
(the Creator) thought that of them what way
wessi lenawewiki hutelélemekwáli. Hine mayetéletaka
they are going to live that’s what he thought When Creator
shall they live about them
huteléleta hinä’ skuté [wakthenanamwa]
thinks so (what he wants to do) then fire he gave them-NOT
thought so
hupakthenamawáhi; wempthéletanáwa hwe-
then he gave them (fire) then (God) started (get the use of) then
they will have use for it now
niélelema-dsh nehîwe- wessí haleletamoki
what he thinks about it how they could get children
he gives them that way of live in what way shall they have relatives
metélemaki; hinä’ we’pthe noki nishi kwanakíke;
what I created then he started off again for two years
those I have created
hutekwáli “Nizhikwanakíkie piáya näwákuta
he told them in two years when I come back (then) I will know
skwí halweletáki hinä’ piéwa.
increase his progeny then he (God) came
wahishi hine piáya
in what shape can I make then when I come
his progeny or relations increase
Hiné wunewa’hi memetélema-dsh hine awathóki
Then he saw them whom he created they warmed themselves
(man & woman) hawathógi
skutéki kiekametéki lematapi-’ki; na-i léni
by the fire one on one, and they were sitting that man (the Creator)
on the other hina hiléni
the man & the woman
natotawo-tho “nihíwe- kitela’koma yáma ?’kwä’wa?” “Nitkwä’ma,”
then asked him what is your kinship to this She is my sister
natu’htawo-tho relation
hutekóli. Hiné hunatu’htawáli nébi ?’kwéli. “Nehíwe kitelako’ma
he answered Then he asked the woman Then what is your
yáma hiléni?” “Noskima,” hutekóli, hiné nokí wépthe,
to this man (he is) my brother she answered then again he went off, away
“Nishikunakíke noki népia.” “Kämwápamelépwa nóki
in two years again I’ll come I will come to see you again
(archaicfor nízhi kató) kiemawápamelépwa
hutekwáli, hiné tahipiádshi na-’zhi kunakíke, hiné hiniélehema-’dsh
said he then when he came in two years (days) then what he thinks about
he thought of them
hinóki tepekíke nigutélna-i wenepégi mata katawié
now, at present in the night we will sleep at one place not they wanted
in this night [man and woman] together katawí-yet
they will sleep they had not even
wíshi leletî’gi. Hinä’ nokí wépthe nízhikwanakíke,
to increase, really, “to generate” Then again he started for two years
think, D.
the idea of generating
hutegwáli. Hiné yepiádshi nàzhikwanakíke, hî’ni yelelemádshi
said he Then when he came after two years (days) then he what he thinks
(thought) about
it, wants him to
do so
matá wiehí leletî’gi, huwé hinóki nielelemáki
then they have no desire now at present what (God) thinks about them
of each other hini yelelemaki
they did not think anything I shall think that of them
of one another nila niyelélemaki-I think of him
(-ki, pl. same)
[At the passage, where the man and woman warm themselves at the fire, ad the following:
Hiné tekwéthi kwä’wa hine milótho hokóta
Then was ashamed the woman and he gave to her skirt
nila nitekwéthi nimíla I give from hokotáwali
(something to hide)
thakamíkwi; hukutehótho( húwe hiná iléni hukutépitho
moss she covered herself with-NOT then that man put a breechclout
“they put it on her”, D. on
thakamíkwi. Hiné wákuta maitéle moílitch wapiálitchi
made of moss She knew Creator 325 when he was used
(ginwie for moss ??) huwakumáli, D. to come
(every two years)
nekî’tho (follows right after nekótho)
she hid (her belly)
Watashonamawáli níli’kwe-l(i) hupika hunéki tchinopika
(God) transformed that woman her flank her arm her one side
he changed (her) (yes) one of her ribs,D. hune’hki tchine hupíka (not
pl. hupikáwali needed)
nokina hiléni niáshka mamutéli náshita humiláli
him that man in same things next exchanged and
nokí hina híni ya-’shka took (his) next from him gave it to him
the same way
ni hulitch(i) hunéki tchinä hupíka nili?kwéli na-’shita
hini her hands her arms then her (side) rib of that woman then next (??)
hina kwäwa hunéki tchinä hupíka milo-tho hina ileni,
that woman her arms her (hip-NOT) ribs (God) gave them to that
to him man
híni we-’dshi huwe leletiwa-dshi. We tchíne wépthe
therefore they they think of huwe then (God) started
each other well
nizhi kwanákekie kiewapa mepelepwá hutekwáli. Hina ?’kwä’wa
for two years then I come to see you he told them That woman
under wapama, 609, 573
homosh’hali yewisa piálitchi we hulelháwali
knew (without seeing), he would come how (then) they washed (the baby)
instinctively (huwe-) nila nulelhá hapelû’htha
I wash a child
níli hapelóthalî, ‘we hupiétchi humush’hawáli wetegwethígi;
baby that he was they knew instinctively and they were
(or apelótha) carrying XX ashamed
we híne nepígi hutpagiláwa-li; we na pilotha; kwaškúkui,
now in that water they threw (it) huwe hina baby floated away
nila nitpagilú-I (n=ne that) hapelótha it was washed
throw (anim.) away
we híne- kótchiwe hutekwáli (hu)we- niéshî mila-’tchi
then why (they did it) he asked them then hini ye-shi he gave (her) pain
níli kwe-’l(i) hinó miláli washi kishna-’tch lukelitch(i) washí
to that woman he gave her the pangs of maternity sickness will have so
because they had thrown the child away
washí hakwelema-’tchi nokí wapo-na-tchí hapeló’tháli we
so she would love again the next one she would have) a child
(the child) (next time) she will have
no-tchi wepthé taholelhawa-tchi nîlí hapelóthali,
there (God) started where they had washed (it) that child
tahapiwa-’dshi héki wentashí hapíki wen hapelótha
where they had there they returned stayed and that baby
stayed returned and now remained there húwe hina
kwashkúkui kutági menethíki sipakat’húkui, hiné
floated off to another island it landed against
(to the shore of another island)
matelemu-éta ni’eshitehe-’dshi nitassi nemaitélema hiní ta
Creator there he thought then that I created there there
hini ye-shi ne metélema sitéhe- (that same child)
I think I will create
metelemohotchi hini hapelótha kutági menethéki.
that’s where it was created that child on another island
it was created
Tashî’ metelemotho- katéwilenígî.
From (that child) were created the Negroes
From this the Negroes descended
This concludes the story about that child.
Mesumthená is another name for Kukumthená.
Story of the big snakes, destroyed by God, others he drove under the ground, others he transformed.
Kukumthená Story
Hiné Kukumthéna nieládshi maitelemiwélitchi “Ke míli nikî
then Kukumthená told the Creator, God you give me those
hini yeládshi
memetélematchki níla wähueshténwi hushtethí(a)”;
whom you have created for me right to have them for
it will be better for me grandchildren
“matá” huteláli “hinî’ ye-ssi piétchi né-iswi kawie-’kwe. Hîni
no he said (you) have been both against me Thus
yessi piétchi matsilotawie-’kwe memeteletama,” matá
you have been destroying, ruining what I have created (then) she not
hut’thikagóla niaska niaíkutchi mata teláli
would quit, then Kukumthena (subj.) yé kutchi (God) told her no
kept on insisting, hini yáshka
asking for those children
hupalóhi hini (h)uteláli Kukumthenáli “’we kíla kiemeteletamawáki
finally he told her he told her Kukumthená now you you must create for
wamthéletamawa-’dshi.” Hine we’na hinihutekóli: wéne
what will be of benefit for them so she said, then
huwehine (she answered)
humeteletamuáhi wamtheletamawádshi. Wené
she created for them what will be of benefit (some use) to them Then
mwáhi is “for them”
humeteletamahî’ mekinhwéli wene humeteletamawáhi(li)
she created one animal after this she created for this one (to hunt)
(wéki, pl.) húwe hi-’ne
hine níli (hiná) niki pseksi, mkwáki, pileshkí mthótho,
this one (man), that (or yíykuma) a deer a bear wild buffalo
him (pl. –î’gi) sg., mkwá (pl., -ógi)
wapitítha, wapitígi, thebatígi, piléski pelégi, hanikwáki,
antelope elks raccoons wild turkeys squirrels
(-thagi) (sg., pälä’wa) (sg. hanikwá)
hapkíki, nódshi tcháki si
pairie chickens after them all other
sg. hápki or tchaya’?ki halika-ishi contracted into si- or híssi
beyond those animals
mekínhwe-ki. Nänie niese meteletamawa-’dshi
animals Then that’s the way while created (she)
hine hini ye-ssi
nágokumthéna, hinä’ meteletamakóli washíntha-’dshi, nihí
our grandmother then she created for him he can kill (them) these
(that man) the mode to kill them
mekinhwe-l(i), wéne hilena’kwi humilekóli tchinä’ hilenálú.
animals then a bow she gave him and besides arrows
huwe hine a man’s
Hinä humeteletamakwáli washî metch’háwadshi hulathwáli
Subsequently she created for them how to make buckskins
hutakunawáli, metchimî’ hûpthekwanalawáli metchimî’
they wore it (they made also they wore them on their feet also
for them to wear, moccasins) also the buckskins to wear on
cover themselves their feet
then made leggings and wore them
(your breeches)
also to wear as leggings, on their legs
nila niptheká I wear on my foot mthuthwayi cowskins
1672 nila ni wesh’hû I wear breeches, leggings
pg. 168—blank—
pg. 169
Shawnee Vocables
Obtained from Charles Du Chesne
Nov. 29,1892
683 skwáte door
mekutsak’kí knot in wood
sissehíka poker
kalkahî’ka shovel
withiki fire-dogs, lit. “dogs”
pékwi ashes and dust
gegisitégwi pékwi hot ashes
tékaki pékwi cold ashes
unsaletía pékwi dust is flying around
unthé to fly
tetepák’gi bar, stick
tetepák’gi kupällak’kwi ironbat
petakwíka cover, lid
näpetak’ha I cover something
hutekwá heavy stick, heavy wood
684 hapassí switch
gegaskutsaleági gitgéhika pickaxe, pick
wewawiatabeska-ki wheel
E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2007, 09:04:14 PM »

The following is usually understood as an explanation for the  fossils found at Big Bone Lick, but Jefferson's telling of the (Lenapewak) (Delaware)tradition from "Notes on the State of Virginia" holds somehing more:

"Our quadrupeds have been mostly described by Linnaeus and Mons. de Buffon. Of these the Mammoth, or big buffalo, as called by the Indians, must certainly have been the largest. Their tradition is, that he was carnivorous, and still exists in the northern parts of America.

"A delegation of warriors from the Delaware tribe having visited the governor of Virginia, during the present revolution, on matters of business, after these had been discussed and settled in council, the governor asked them some questions relative to their country, and, among others, what they knew or had heard of the animal whose bones were found at the Saltlicks, on the Ohio. Their chief speaker immediately put himself into an attitude of oratory, and with a pomp suited to what he conceived the elevation of his subject, informed him that it was a tradition handed down from their fathers,

`That in antient times a herd of these tremendous animals came to the Big-bone licks, and began an universal destruction of the bear, deer, elks, buffaloes, and other animals, which had been created for the use of the Indians: that the Great Man above, looking down and seeing this, was so enraged that he seized his lightning, descended on the earth, seated himself on a neighbouring mountain, on a rock, of which his seat and the print of his feet are still to be seen, and hurled his bolts among them till the whole were slaughtered, except the big bull, who presenting his forehead to the shafts, shook them off as they fell; but missing one at length, it wounded him in the side; whereon, springing round, he bounded over the Ohio, over the Wabash, the Illinois, and finally over the great lakes, where he is living at this day.'

To this account Jefferson added further information supporting speculation that the mammoth was still alive.

As the Lenapewak were on the west coast of Canada at the time of the Holocene start impacts, they most likely inherited this tradition from the Shawnee.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 09:08:56 PM »

Besides the existing distinct holocene start account of the Lenepwak, the following leads me to suspect borrowing or adoption of the information given to Jefferson.
It was noted by Adrienne Mayor:

and her book is advertised there. If I had a copy of it then I would have  the originals of these her extracts:

"In 1762, John Wright of Kentucky talked with several Shawnee about big skeletons found along the Ohio River. The Shawnee said the bones belonged to an immense animal, the "grandfather of all buffalo," and that they had been hunted by "great men" of the distant past. But after all those supermen died out, THE GREAT SPIRIT DESTROYED THE ENORMOUS ANIMALS WITH LIGHTNING so that they wouldn't harm smaller men of the present day.

"The Delaware  elders told Thomas Jefferson a similar story, only they claimed that the gigantic animals were driving away smaller game, like deer and bear. This angered their god, WHO BLASTED THE MASSIVE ANIMALS WITH LIGHTNING BOLTS. Only their petrified remains could be seen today, although it was possible that some had escaped to the far north. Jefferson hoped that Lewis and Clark would discover living specimens of the fossil mammoths so abundant along the Ohio River.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2009, 03:22:34 AM »

I dont know if this is relevant to your discussion, but I thought it might be: I haven't read the full paper as it is another of "pay per view" type of publication...

Did the Mammoth Slayer Leave a Diamond Calling Card?
Richard A. Kerr
In this issue of Science (p. 94), a group of nine researchers presents the latest evidence for a cosmic catastrophe just 12,900 years ago: transmission electron microscopy showing nanodiamonds from the geologic moment of the putative catastrophe.

Full story at

Happy 2009 to all...



Paul Trehin
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 01:05:53 PM »

For me, the end of use of many quarries at 8,350 BCE most likely was again caused by comet or asteroid impact, simply because nothing else can account for such a sudden and massive change in population. Certainly not the introduction of maritime technologies (Dalton archaic maritime white serated edge points), which follow later.

Over the last year, I have come to realize that the introduction of European disease vectors by the Red Paint people
(Canadian maritime archaic) likely explains the die-off at 8,350 BCE, which is marked by the Dalton serated edge points.
And yes, new diseases can kill 90-95 -100% of a population.

I only saw my first Dalton point well after my book was completed, and had not stumbled into them earlier, as one can see by reading my 2002 survey; I was also unaware of how devastating diseases were, so when I looked at discontinuities my research bias took over.

That's what correction sheets are for.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 06:42:19 PM »

I want to add here to the traditions passed on above this Lakota tradition as recovered by Firestone's team:

Battle with the Giant Animals

In the world before this one, the People and the animals turned to evil and forgot their connection to the Creator. Resolving to destroy the world and start over, Creator warned a few good People to flee to the highest mountaintops. After they were safe, He sang the Song of Destruction and sent down fierce Thunderbirds to wage a great battle against the other humans and the giant animals.

They fought for a long time because the evil men and the animals had become very powerful, and neither side could gain an advantage. Finally, at the height of the battle, the Thunderbirds suddenly threw down their most powerful thunderbolts all at once. The fiery blast shook the entire world, toppling mountain ranges, and setting forests and prairies ablaze. Searing flames leapt up to the sky in all directions, sparing only the few People on the highest peaks. It was so hot that the world’s lakes boiled and dried up before their eyes. Even the rocks glowed red-hot, and the giant animals and evil people burned up where they stood.

After the Earth finished baking, Creator began to make a new world, and as He chanted the Song of Creation, it began to rain. He sang louder and it rained harder until the rivers overflowed their banks and surged across the baked landscape. Finally, He stamped the Earth and with a great quake the Earth split open, sending great torrents of water surging across the entire world, until only a few mountain peaks stood above the flood, sheltering the few huddled People who had survived. After the waters cleansed the Earth and subsided, Creator sent the surviving People out to populate the new world, our world today, but He warned them not to fall into evil, or He would destroy the world again. As the People went out over the land, they found the bleached bones of the giant animals buried in rock and mud all over the world. People still find them today in the Dakota Badlands. (Retold from Erdoes, 1984.)

The mention of the mountain peaks where these people survived are likely to be the Pacific ranges, IMO, as demonstrated by the mt A DNA haplogroup finds there. The "bleached bones buried in rock" is likely to have been a later explanation for later fossils finds, somewhat similar to the late materials about Big Bone Lick also passed on above.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas (despite its faults, a damn fine book, IMO.
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 02:20:01 AM »

Some additional information on an external cause to Mammoth extinction was published in Scientific American, January 2, 2009 in Archaeology & Paleontology

Did a Comet Hit Earth 12,000 Years Ago?
Nanodiamonds found across North America suggest that major climate change could have been cosmically instigated
By David Biello

Click here for more



Paul Trehin
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 02:32:39 PM »

Links to Firestone's team's papers may be found here, alongside contact info:

http://ie.lbl. gov/mammoth/ mammoth.html Firestone paper links
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 11:19:26 AM »

Just to end some confusion, Firestone et al's paper proposing two far earlier asteroid impacts (not YD comet impacts)
which occurred in Berringia may be found here:

Note that these are different than the YD comet impact ca. 13 kya. One of these asteroid impacts is hypothesized
at 35 kya, the other at 26 kya.

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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 03:45:16 PM »

Firestone replies to some of the other researchers findings here

Note the clear referee bias.

I suspect that the spores from the Appleton lake cores dating was thrown off by 14C production related to the impact process.

What is very interesting is that the effects of hunting by pre-Clovis may be showing up in these cores, and the introduction of Clovis tech may be showing up as well.

We know there is a very late mammoth survival on Wrangel Island, and perhaps something similar has been seen in the recent Alaskan DNA data, or perhaps its just mixing of layer data.

We'll see.

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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 10:36:06 AM »

Take a look. It strikes me that the banks of a river which is subject to flooding is not the best place to gather
DNA samples for dating purposes:

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