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Author Topic: Egyptian prehistory  (Read 15392 times)
Mikey Brass
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2009, 05:47:36 PM »

I am not going to go back over the history of this discussion. Anyone who is suitably bored can trace it for themselves.

There have been very convincing refutations of the Soluterean idea. You can find citations in this board's archives.

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Why not just repeat the assertion and the link,

It's standard to read any recommended articles and links, and then comment. You might also have stopped to think why a Saharan archaeologist was saying you are wrong and not repeat the asserttion without asking for additional clarification.

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You have a fine site,

Thank you.

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though it has no materials on the Tan Tan and La Y'ouan areas, as near as I can see yet. The Western Sahara/Atlantic Coast is the area of interest for me.

The site is in need of updating. I have put it on the back burner between my job, my revisiting the site of Jebel Moya (south-central Sudan) and other matters. There are many sites which I would like to eventually include.

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While Wendorf concluded the Kubbaniya barley dates were wrong, note that he is still puzzled how this came about

I cannot verify this independently: I was told by a reliable source that the seeds were planted in the collection in the lab as a joke (not by any senior member of the team) which subsequently got out of hand.

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especially with the Libyan desert glass microliths

From http://www.saharaadventurecompany.com/gilf.html:
"Libyan Desert Glass (LDG) is the purest form natural silica glass to be found on earth. It is usually a light green in colour and can be found in a small oval area about 120km long by 50km wide which is (despite the name) on the Egyptian side of the border with Libya. It is found laying on the sand in amongst burnt igneous rocks on the floor of the corridors between the dunes."

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I also learned that the earlier dates for the Nabtaen "henges" were wrong as well, and I learned that man would move from the Nile as the eastern desert got wet, which occurred in spurts, and that the Holocene drying was not continuous.

Do you have access to an university library? If so, got more references to give you on the climate.

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there is still a problem: VERY early HSS fossils in SE Asia.

Are you referring to Lujang? If so, it isn't a problem.
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2009, 09:27:51 PM »

There have been very convincing refutations of the Soluterean idea. You can find citations in this board's archives.

Which still leaves the site at Pedra Furada in Brazil, the distribution of clovis points, and the Savanah River proples' physical traits to explain.

Quote
Why not just repeat the assertion and the link,

It's standard to read any recommended articles and links, and then comment. You might also have stopped to think why a Saharan archaeologist was saying you are wrong and not repeat the asserttion without asking for additional clarification.

Watch out for the typos - they're a sure sign your blood pressure is going up, and that can have really nasty results.
I've been told many things by many people. Some of them have even turned out to be true occasionally. Speaking of boring, when I started on Wendorf's retraction last night, I hit the first radio carbon date and sacked out.

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While Wendorf concluded the Kubbaniya barley dates were wrong, note that he is still puzzled how this came about

I cannot verify this independently: I was told by a reliable source that the seeds were planted in the collection in the lab as a joke (not by any senior member of the team) which subsequently got out of hand.

That would be something of an understatement.
I am still making the assumption that Wendorf found the microliths in the same strata as the grinding stones.
While he now ascribes the grinding stones to tuber utilization, one would have to take a very close look again at this, as many pre-clovis researchers faced intense pressure to retract.

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though it has no materials on the Tan Tan and La Y'ouan areas, as near as I can see yet. The Western Sahara/Atlantic Coast is the area of interest for me.

The site is in need of updating. I have put it on the back burner between my job, my revisiting the site of Jebel Moya (south-central Sudan) and other matters. There are many sites which I would like to eventually include.

Something somewhere is needed for west coastal Africa.

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especially with the Libyan desert glass microliths

From http://www.saharaadventurecompany.com/gilf.html:
"Libyan Desert Glass (LDG) is the purest form natural silica glass to be found on earth. It is usually a light green in colour and can be found in a small oval area about 120km long by 50km wide which is (despite the name) on the Egyptian side of the border with Libya. It is found laying on the sand in amongst burnt igneous rocks on the floor of the corridors between the dunes."

The LDG microliths have formation and manufacture ages as well, if memory serves, isotopically determined by European laboratories, again if memory serves. But then it sometimes doesn't.

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I also learned that the earlier dates for the Nabtaen "henges" were wrong as well, and I learned that man would move from the Nile as the eastern desert got wet, which occurred in spurts, and that the Holocene drying was not continuous.

Do you have access to an university library? If so, got more references to give you on the climate.

No. My driving ability is limited now, sadly. The main data I'm interested in is the climate of the west coastal regions,
and I was quite pleased when the Brooks link you graciously provided me with led to a paper showing some wet periods in the range say 70,000-9,000 BCE.

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there is still a problem: VERY early HSS fossils in SE Asia.

Are you referring to Lujang? If so, it isn't a problem.

Not only Lujang.
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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2009, 06:20:21 AM »

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Which still leaves the site at Pedra Furada in Brazil, the distribution of clovis points, and the Savanah River proples' physical traits to explain.

I would, again, recommend going through the archives on this message board, follow up the references provided and return for a new discussion when you have digested and integrated the information.

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Watch out for the typos

There are none in my previous (and reposted below) paragraph and I would - yet again - recommend following the advice:
It's standard to read any recommended articles and links, and then comment. You might also have stopped to think why a Saharan archaeologist was saying you are wrong and not repeat the asserttion without asking for additional clarification.

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I am still making the assumption that Wendorf found the microliths in the same strata as the grinding stones.

There are different horizons at the site. You will need to obtain a copy of the original, published site report and go through it if you want that level of detail.

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While he now ascribes the grinding stones to tuber utilization,

...and rightly so.

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Something somewhere is needed for west coastal Africa.

There are more urgent priorities for my site. The archaeology in the Sudanese Sahelian belt is rapid, a section is needed on Gobero in Niger, etc etc.

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No. My driving ability is limited now, sadly.

I am happy to provide whatever pdfs I can if you find a reference you would like to follow up.

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Not only Lujang.

Which other sites do you have in mind?
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2009, 02:50:34 PM »

You might also have stopped to think why a Saharan archaeologist was saying you are wrong and not repeat the asserttion without asking for additional clarification.

I believe assertion is spelled with one "t". As my stroke progressed before finally bursting, typos came more often, followed by the failure of my left hand entirely.

I am happy to provide whatever pdfs I can if you find a reference you would like to follow up.

Thank you. I would appreciate simply a nice chart of precipitation in the Sahara in the paleo, and any materials concerning The Tan Tan and La Y'ouan areas from any period. I really couldn't handle anything more.

Which other sites do you have in mind?

Here's a nice one for very early man in SE Asia:
http://researchsea.com/html/article.php/aid/3937/cid/6/research/usm_discovers_concrete_evidence_that_can_chance_the_history_of_early_man.html

Impacts are a really useful new tool for clearing up some of the mysteries of mankind's past.  For example:

>To (meteorite) List:

>       Does anybody know of a good reference (preferably a web site) that
>discusses stone tools made from Libyan Desert Glass (i.e. most common
>occurrences, tool types, etc..)?
>
Hello Randy and list,

there is quite some reference material regarding prehistoric artifacts
recovered from the sahara deserts. I did not yet step over a website
covering your particular subject but the following publications refer
to LDG, standard tool types as well as to the other materials that have
been used. If you roughly know what period your tools belong to
(paleo-, epipaleo- or neolithic) classification is indeed much easier.
You may as well have a look at the prehistoric finds inventory at our
website:
 http://www.niger-meteorite-recon.de/praehist.htm
The classifications are also in english, so some of it may be of use
for you. In march 03 we recovered some 120 artifacts, about 20% are
already listed in the inventory catalogue.

This is a rich article about LDG tools recovered from the Great Sand
Sea in the one and only Bulletin for Archaeoastronomy:
Carlson, John B., ed., Archaeoastronomy: The Bulletin of the Center for
Archaeoastronomy, Volume V, no. 2, April-June 1982. Olsen, John W.,
``Libyan Desert Glass and the Prehistory of the Great Sand Sea,'' p. 11.

The paleolithics are best covered by: Francois Bordes: Lecons sur le
Paleolithique, Vol II, Paris 1984.

This is probably the most suitable tool for your research because it
covers most of the published finds in all North Africa until the 1980s.
Each entry goes along with various sources for further research.
Alphabetical order allows to search either for special tool types or
for the location your tools have been found at:
Andre Léroi-Gourhan: Dictionaire de la prehistoire, foreword by José
Garanger, Paris 1986

This is a German standard reference guide for recognition and
classification of prehistoric tools:
Hansjuergen Mueller Beck (ed.): Erkennen und Bestimmen von Stein und
Knochenartefakten, Tuebingen 1993. With an online dictionary
classifications can easyly be translated.

At: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/browse.cfm?&CatID=360&StartRow=11
you will find an english research report of the Olduvai excavation in
Northern Tansania. It contains a complete tool inventory of the
"average Atérien hunter clan" and is also representative for the
Atérien in Libya resp. the northeastern Africa.

If somebody else comes across any reference website I would be thankful
for a link as well.

best wishes
Svend"

Unfortunately the link is not working, but if my memory serves, when the LDG tools underwent isotopic analysis, some very old ages were arrived at. 

Thanks,
E.P.










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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2009, 03:02:24 PM »

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I believe assertion is spelled with one "t".

Yes. Just goes to show I have never learnt to proof-read my non-work and non-academic writings before hitting "post". Still: You might also have stopped to think why a Saharan archaeologist was saying you are wrong and not repeat the assertion without asking for additional clarification.

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Thank you. I would appreciate simply a nice chart of precipitation in the Sahara in the paleo, and any materials concerning The Tan Tan and La Y'ouan areas from any period. I really couldn't handle anything more.

Send me an e-mail with your address to send across what I have: mike@antiquityofman.com

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Aahhhh, you were confusingly referring to early Homo and not early Homo sapiens sapiens.

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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2009, 03:16:06 PM »

My apologies for the duplicate post.

But then there's this also:
http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/SG.htm, where LDG microliths were found in a a clearly
neolithic context.

See also, somewhat alarmingly:
http://www.libyan-desert-glass.net/artefact_stone_age_palaeolithicum.html
for a nice assortment. I assume these were collected and exported before the
practice was put a stop to.

Ahhh... Homo... but what Homo, erectus or heidelbergensis or.... something else?
Say early "Homo aquaticus".

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas











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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2009, 04:53:04 AM »

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Some may be authentic (looting still occurs) but yet more will be replicas (a more common practice).

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Ahhh... Homo... but what Homo, erectus or heidelbergensis or.... something else?

The excavators have designated the earliest Homo remains from the site as being a separate species, Homo georgicus. Personally, I regard them as Homo erectus.

Either way, keep in mind that the earliest remains designated as Homo sapiens sapiens are dated ca. 160kya.
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
E.P. Grondine
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Posts: 107


« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2009, 10:55:14 AM »

The excavators have designated the earliest Homo remains from the site as being a separate species, Homo georgicus. Personally, I regard them as Homo erectus.

Either way, keep in mind that the earliest remains designated as Homo sapiens sapiens are dated ca. 160kya.

And therein lies the problem that I ran into when I wrote "Man and Impact in the Americas" - a lack of agreement on taxonomy. I was a space journalist, so this lack of agreement  made it very difficult to write about the effects of massive impacts on man's evolution - we're talking impacts up to 88,000,000,000 hiroshimas in force. You can imagine how those  "nuclear winter"'s effected the hominids.

This rather complete lack of agreement left me in a position where I was sure to be in disagreement with someone.











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Mikey Brass
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 10:58:06 AM »

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And therein lies the problem that I ran into when I wrote "Man and Impact in the Americas"

Can you elaborate, please? Homo sapiens sapiens have been the only hominins in the Americas.
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Best, Mikey Brass
Ph.D. student, Institute of Archaeology, UCL
Website: http://www.antiquityofman.com

- !ke e: /xarra //ke
("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
E.P. Grondine
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Posts: 107


« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2009, 05:54:36 AM »

Hi Mike -

I greatly expanded on Peiser and Paine's paper:
users.tpg.com.au/horsts/bioastr2002.pdf

for "Getting to the Crossings", Chapter 2 of "Man and Impact in the Americas", and that's where I hit the
palaeoanthropology community's taxonomic disagreements. (Write me off list for the palaeoanthropology
special on signed first editions.)

"You see, you can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Take everyone that holds differing opinions about taxa than yourself, and you can see what I ran into. In other words, it was a certainty that I would greatly upset someone. Now if I could just get you and those you disagree with together in a room, and watch the feathers fly, hell, that might be right entertaining and a whole lot more humane than a cockfight.

When I first hit the problem I mentioned it in a footnote, which originally I had planned to stream on each page below the text,  but after my stroke this proved impossible.

By the way, it is appearing that within HSS, impacts led to population isolations and mt DNA differentiation. The A/C split may be linked to either a large Siberian or a large Alaskan iron impactor, both of which are well dated, by the way. Does this hold for many mt DNA haplogroups? Sadly, that kind of work is beyond me now.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas



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E.P. Grondine
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2009, 01:52:22 PM »

http://www.rocksfromspace.org/December_1_2009.html

Thought you might enjoy this. Is that a core at the top right, a chopperto mid center, with a flaked piece to the left below it?
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trehinp
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 03:08:05 AM »

Difficult to tell just from one picture...

It could well be that such hard stones were used by the palaeolithic human beings given that they were very hard and provided sharp cutting edges. But thia is pure spéculation...

Paul
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Paul Trehin
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